David Lewayne Porter If that which is addressed to Eve can be construed as a prescription, then that which is addressed to Adam must also be interpreted by the same rules.
If Eve is directed in Genesis 3:16 to submit to her husband, then Adam is directed in verses 18-20 to do quite a few things:
1. Only negative emotions allowed at mealtimes.
2. Every godly man must grow a garden… of thorns and thistles.
3. A vegan diet is mandatory for men. (not for women.)
4. Males MUST work up a sweat before dinner, and the face must not be washed of that sweat, before eating.
It’s obvious that Christian men feel no compunction about counteracting every aspect of the “curse” that applies to them.
David Lewayne Porter As to the order prescribed by Paul… it was never addressed to men, telling them to get their wives to submit to them.
In fact, in Genesis 1:28, women were given equal domination alongside men… and man was not given any license or direction to dominate women.
Read it for yourself.
Instead, all directives to wives to submit are equally balanced by directives to husbands, to love.
Perhaps the directives to women to submit were in answer to the natural bent of a wife not to submit to her husband.
After all, ALL Christians are to submit one to another!
And perhaps the directives to men to love their wives were in answer to the natural bent of a man not to understand and operate in love toward his wife at all times.
After all, ALL Christians are supposed to love one another!
Women tend to understand how to love more than they tend to understand how to honor and submit to a man.
(Face it–women are more intuitive, and tend to value their intuition more than their husband’s reason-based approach.)
And men tend to understand honor and respect more than they “get” the whole “love” thing. Men have a code among themselves that women do not have.
Women need to learn from men how to respect as a man can feel respect.
And men need to learn from women how to love so that a woman will feel loved.
Neither gender is superior to the other.
We are merely different, and should learn from one another, in humility.
David Lewayne Porter I hope I’m not overkilling this…
God created humankind in His image. God is Trinity. He is plurality-in-unity. Thus, His true image had to also be created as a plurality-in-unity.
Adam and Eve together were made in God’s image.
Adam was not created any more perfectly in God’s image than Eve was.
Just as God the Son was the Word throughout past eternity, and proceeded from the Father,
Even so, God designed that woman also proceeded from man. It is His perfect image.
Just as the Son is no less God for coming out of the Father, even so Eve is no less the image of God, for coming out of Adam’s side.
Eve was made to be a help, meet (or fit) for Adam.
Did this mean she was less than Adam?
The same word used for Eve being made a help for Adam, is used many times in the Psalms to tell us God is our help.
Therefore, “help” does not mean to be less than the one helped.
instead, look at the word “meet”. It means a counterpart. An exact opposite.
Which implies equality.
Troy Day have you ever heard of the ezer argument? How the word “ezer” in Hebrew is helpmate. It is used in Gen 2:18 to explain the companion role a second human (a woman) would be; and it is used in Psalm 121:1 to describe God. Isn’t it funny that in Genesis, we want to interpret it hierarchically but not in Psalms? I am sure it would be theological incorrect to assume that a male person is “above” God his, Ezer, right?
Right, Margaret Mowczko, and the other thing I always think of regarding “covering” is that if a “covering” is necessary, wouldn’t Father God be covering enough for anyone – male or female – slave or free? What about unmarried adult women who are called to ministry? There are some who think they must literally stay in their father’s home and submit to all his ideas if they never marry. What happens when Dad dies? Little brother takes over??? What if there’s no brother? This gets really complicated.
Margaret Mowczko, Karen Lucas
So you have never read,
“Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
So Then I guess if headship and covering does not exist then husbands loving their wives is discounted as well?
(Poison pill).
This passage does not address “covering, per se. that is another subject, addressed in I Cor. 11.
As to THIS particular passage, it does tell women to be subject to their husbands. And it is clear.
However, I find it particularly disturbing that husbands use this as a stick to try to get their wives to submit.
Does it work, for a wife to try to get her husband to love her, by complaining about it, trying to teach him from the Bible that He ought to love her better?
NO.
So… my point is this: READ YOUR OWN MAIL!
God wrote some stuff addressed to men, and some stuff addressed to women.
Men should focus on reading that which God addressed to THEM. If a husband truly loves his wife as Christ loves the church, it makes it SO much easier to submit to him!
…just as much as it helps a man to love his wife, if she submits to him!
However, let me tell you my own story.
My husband had a hole in his soul. He was borderline schizophrenic ever since I knew him… besides being a little autistic. He couldn’t hold a job, and couldn’t manage money… and couldn’t understand social interactions in group settings… and he felt despised by the whole world.
I tried with all I had, to fill up that hole. But it was bigger than anything I could supply to him. And it nearly destroyed me.
He blamed me for everything bad in our marriage. For years, he used the very verses you quoted, to try to get me to honor him more. To try to get me to submit better.
i followed him from church to church… we averaged a new church every year or two… and we moved about as often. Eventually, he was sure he was supposed to start a house church, and I submitted to that, too. Eventually, since no one came, we simply didn’t have services at home, nor did we attend anywhere.
Isolated and severely depressed, I very nearly committed suicide.
But then he abandoned me and the kids.
And suddenly, the light came on.
The reason he accused me (falsely!) of committing adultery, is because that’s where his own heart was.
And the reason he constantly held it over me that I wasn’t submissive enough, is because his own ego was far too important to him.
He was trying to apply Ephesians 5:22 to me,
without first applying verse 21 to himself!
Quite to the contrary, David Lewayne Porter. I am very aware of it and also very thankful for it. It’s a beautiful passage. However, I think it would be important to do a word study on the word “head” in this scripture. The interpretation Westerners tend to assign to it in the hierarchial sense may not be the most appropriate choice. The word is probably more accurately interpreted as “source,” which is more in keeping with the general concept of the word “husband” as in husbandry. Verse 23 is, I believe, a further explanation or evidence for the purpose and value of adhering to the instruction given in verse 21 to engage in the mutual submission that you so wisely pointed out was described in verse 21.
Karen I like your comment regarding head as “source”. We speak of the “head” ir a river, being the source from which the river springs. I think your observation about the hierarchical western mindset is very valid, because if we believe in “healing and wholeness” as a central focus of Gospel activity then by definition, we should be seeking a holistic view of life and human interaction. Often the inner wholeness must begin to emerge and this enables physical healing and the eradication of dysfunctional behaviours that so often plague us.
Conversion is a journey. A danger is we often see ut as an end in itself, but it is much more than that. Many religious people wave their salvation ticket Sunday by Sunday but fail to ever jump on the train for the life journey. This of course was what the “deeper life” message was all about – living our faith, knowing the truth, and allowing the truth to destroy self mis-conceptions and setting us free in Jesus Name.
Exactly Karen, and where is your river without the source? There is not one is there.
I am not belittling the woman, on the contrary. By the woman being created the fact is shown that man could not do it alone. But looking to 1 Cor 11, man is the head of the wife, 1 Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Who directed Christ’s earthly ministry He Himself or the Father. How did Christ end up on the cross
Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
There are too many other Scriptures that keep us from just discounting that the head of the home is the male (under Christ, under God The Father).
If not, then I submit, that the woman not doing so is not fully nor completely submitting to God.
What do you do with believing wives being told to reverence her unbelieving husband unless she is in fear for her life/bodily harm?..And believing wives are allowed to do less,?, …
1 Peter 3.
David Lewayne Porter If that which is addressed to Eve can be construed as a prescription, then that which is addressed to Adam must also be interpreted by the same rules.
If Eve is directed in Genesis 3:16 to submit to her husband, then Adam is directed in verses 18-20 to do quite a few things:
1. Only negative emotions allowed at mealtimes.
2. Every godly man must grow a garden… of thorns and thistles.
3. A vegan diet is mandatory for men. (not for women.)
4. Males MUST work up a sweat before dinner, and the face must not be washed of that sweat, before eating.
It’s obvious that Christian men feel no compunction about counteracting every aspect of the “curse” that applies to them.
David Lewayne Porter As to the order prescribed by Paul… it was never addressed to men, telling them to get their wives to submit to them.
In fact, in Genesis 1:28, women were given equal domination alongside men… and man was not given any license or direction to dominate women.
Read it for yourself.
Instead, all directives to wives to submit are equally balanced by directives to husbands, to love.
Perhaps the directives to women to submit were in answer to the natural bent of a wife not to submit to her husband.
After all, ALL Christians are to submit one to another!
And perhaps the directives to men to love their wives were in answer to the natural bent of a man not to understand and operate in love toward his wife at all times.
After all, ALL Christians are supposed to love one another!
Women tend to understand how to love more than they tend to understand how to honor and submit to a man.
(Face it–women are more intuitive, and tend to value their intuition more than their husband’s reason-based approach.)
And men tend to understand honor and respect more than they “get” the whole “love” thing. Men have a code among themselves that women do not have.
Women need to learn from men how to respect as a man can feel respect.
And men need to learn from women how to love so that a woman will feel loved.
Neither gender is superior to the other.
We are merely different, and should learn from one another, in humility.
David Lewayne Porter I hope I’m not overkilling this…
God created humankind in His image. God is Trinity. He is plurality-in-unity. Thus, His true image had to also be created as a plurality-in-unity.
Adam and Eve together were made in God’s image.
Adam was not created any more perfectly in God’s image than Eve was.
Just as God the Son was the Word throughout past eternity, and proceeded from the Father,
Even so, God designed that woman also proceeded from man. It is His perfect image.
Just as the Son is no less God for coming out of the Father, even so Eve is no less the image of God, for coming out of Adam’s side.
Eve was made to be a help, meet (or fit) for Adam.
Did this mean she was less than Adam?
The same word used for Eve being made a help for Adam, is used many times in the Psalms to tell us God is our help.
Therefore, “help” does not mean to be less than the one helped.
instead, look at the word “meet”. It means a counterpart. An exact opposite.
Which implies equality.
Troy Day have you ever heard of the ezer argument? How the word “ezer” in Hebrew is helpmate. It is used in Gen 2:18 to explain the companion role a second human (a woman) would be; and it is used in Psalm 121:1 to describe God. Isn’t it funny that in Genesis, we want to interpret it hierarchically but not in Psalms? I am sure it would be theological incorrect to assume that a male person is “above” God his, Ezer, right?
There is no concept of “covering” mentioned in the New Testament that I’m aware of.
Right, Margaret Mowczko, and the other thing I always think of regarding “covering” is that if a “covering” is necessary, wouldn’t Father God be covering enough for anyone – male or female – slave or free? What about unmarried adult women who are called to ministry? There are some who think they must literally stay in their father’s home and submit to all his ideas if they never marry. What happens when Dad dies? Little brother takes over??? What if there’s no brother? This gets really complicated.
Margaret Mowczko, Karen Lucas
So you have never read,
“Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
So Then I guess if headship and covering does not exist then husbands loving their wives is discounted as well?
(Poison pill).
This passage does not address “covering, per se. that is another subject, addressed in I Cor. 11.
As to THIS particular passage, it does tell women to be subject to their husbands. And it is clear.
However, I find it particularly disturbing that husbands use this as a stick to try to get their wives to submit.
Does it work, for a wife to try to get her husband to love her, by complaining about it, trying to teach him from the Bible that He ought to love her better?
NO.
So… my point is this: READ YOUR OWN MAIL!
God wrote some stuff addressed to men, and some stuff addressed to women.
Men should focus on reading that which God addressed to THEM. If a husband truly loves his wife as Christ loves the church, it makes it SO much easier to submit to him!
…just as much as it helps a man to love his wife, if she submits to him!
However, let me tell you my own story.
My husband had a hole in his soul. He was borderline schizophrenic ever since I knew him… besides being a little autistic. He couldn’t hold a job, and couldn’t manage money… and couldn’t understand social interactions in group settings… and he felt despised by the whole world.
I tried with all I had, to fill up that hole. But it was bigger than anything I could supply to him. And it nearly destroyed me.
He blamed me for everything bad in our marriage. For years, he used the very verses you quoted, to try to get me to honor him more. To try to get me to submit better.
i followed him from church to church… we averaged a new church every year or two… and we moved about as often. Eventually, he was sure he was supposed to start a house church, and I submitted to that, too. Eventually, since no one came, we simply didn’t have services at home, nor did we attend anywhere.
Isolated and severely depressed, I very nearly committed suicide.
But then he abandoned me and the kids.
And suddenly, the light came on.
The reason he accused me (falsely!) of committing adultery, is because that’s where his own heart was.
And the reason he constantly held it over me that I wasn’t submissive enough, is because his own ego was far too important to him.
He was trying to apply Ephesians 5:22 to me,
without first applying verse 21 to himself!
Quite to the contrary, David Lewayne Porter. I am very aware of it and also very thankful for it. It’s a beautiful passage. However, I think it would be important to do a word study on the word “head” in this scripture. The interpretation Westerners tend to assign to it in the hierarchial sense may not be the most appropriate choice. The word is probably more accurately interpreted as “source,” which is more in keeping with the general concept of the word “husband” as in husbandry. Verse 23 is, I believe, a further explanation or evidence for the purpose and value of adhering to the instruction given in verse 21 to engage in the mutual submission that you so wisely pointed out was described in verse 21.
Karen I like your comment regarding head as “source”. We speak of the “head” ir a river, being the source from which the river springs. I think your observation about the hierarchical western mindset is very valid, because if we believe in “healing and wholeness” as a central focus of Gospel activity then by definition, we should be seeking a holistic view of life and human interaction. Often the inner wholeness must begin to emerge and this enables physical healing and the eradication of dysfunctional behaviours that so often plague us.
Conversion is a journey. A danger is we often see ut as an end in itself, but it is much more than that. Many religious people wave their salvation ticket Sunday by Sunday but fail to ever jump on the train for the life journey. This of course was what the “deeper life” message was all about – living our faith, knowing the truth, and allowing the truth to destroy self mis-conceptions and setting us free in Jesus Name.
Exactly Karen, and where is your river without the source? There is not one is there.
I am not belittling the woman, on the contrary. By the woman being created the fact is shown that man could not do it alone. But looking to 1 Cor 11, man is the head of the wife, 1 Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Who directed Christ’s earthly ministry He Himself or the Father. How did Christ end up on the cross
Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
There are too many other Scriptures that keep us from just discounting that the head of the home is the male (under Christ, under God The Father).
If not, then I submit, that the woman not doing so is not fully nor completely submitting to God.
What do you do with believing wives being told to reverence her unbelieving husband unless she is in fear for her life/bodily harm?..And believing wives are allowed to do less,?, …
1 Peter 3.