Or so says proponents of Bill Johnson’s Bethel Church revival meetings. Here they are:1. Begin at the 6:00 mark for a 20 second shot of the glory cloud:www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcPkOR4Lwj02. This brief clip shows gold dust falling from heaven:www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9eAgjH9cJQ3. This clip shows Bethel Church attenders at home, finding diamonds that fell from heaven in their house:www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipWQa7ijcIM
Hmmm.They say people at Azusa Street saw a cloud, fire, etc. Was there anything like that in COG history________________
OTCPNothing in these videos that can be defended by scripture. Sorry it ain’t there.
Some years ago I heard a lot about the gold dust. I heard Bob Shaddels (sp) once. I know he was into the gold dust. He did not mention it while he was preaching. Something did show on his suit while he preached. Don’t know what or how.I was not impressed with the gold dust deal. However I was impressed when about 25 came forward for salvation during the altar invitation.They say it was signs and wonders. I admit it did make me wonder. I wondered where it came from and why.As one posted there is no Biblical support for this________________Recorded Sermons @ http://www.pastorwiley.com
I can understand and comprehend the visible presence of God’s glory, but the gold dust and diamonds. I showed these to a local DJ and he says he uses the same special effects in a show.Notice that these manifestations were happening under carefully controlled lighting conditions.Like the whale said when he saw Jonah, I ain’t a gonna swaller that.________________
CoG Meeting With Glory Cloud
I was invited to meet in a special pastors only meeting with T L Lowery a few years ago when he came to town for a meeting. It was him sitting in a chair facing 15-20 of us and he just spoke from his heart about the church and the importance of the demonstration of the Spirit in our worship services. After his mini-lecture he opened it up for any questions anyone wanted to ask him about anything concerning his almost 60 years of ministry.
I have the answer OT, It is indeed a Cloud … But its a cloud of smoke from one of the megawatt amplifiers burning out….
Hey spartanfan…
My wife and I were in a meeting with one of the greatest men of God I have ever known. He was speaking at a church near us.I have been in meetings with him at other locations, including a meeting he conducted with the COG in Cleveland.This precious brother seemed to be bothered that night. Have no idea why.He laid hands on me and I fell under the power of the Spirit. He laid hands on my wife and she did not fall, so he attempted to push her down.I still love the brother and great respect for him. But I do not like being pushed.I had this happen to me at the church we attend a few months ago. I let my pastor know the man tried to push me down.I know I am off the subject. But I do not like display. Holy Spirit needs no display. He can do as the Father wills, when He wills________________Recorded Sermons @ http://www.pastorwiley.com
________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
While I do not care for Todd Bentley personally especially after having had him minister in my church in 2004 before all the mess. He was arrogant but he was anointed. That said, his rise to fame in such a short time surely highlights the admonition of Paul to Timothy in 1 Timothy 3:6about not putting in novices as they will surely fail under the weight of ministry. I will not defend Todd as to his divorce or ministry as I do not know him or his heart at this point but others do. When a brother falls, what is the proper course of action? Have them repent, if possible to reconcile, if not be sat down and restored if possible. We serve the God of the Second Chance, last I heard. What Bill Johnson and Rick Joyner and a couple of others did was to do exactly that. Todd went to Morningstar and was ministered to by Rick at length. Bill JOhnson was apprised of the ongoing rehabilitation from time to time. After a couple of years Todd was given the opportunity to go back into ministry – from my understanding a better man, and humbled by his failure. You may disagree with his ministry – I’m sure you do but to disparage Bill Johnson and Rick Joyner from trying to help a fallen brother be restored in a Biblical fashion is a low blow. I post below Bill Johnson’s letter to us about Todd Bentley. I am not ready to have him minister for me any time soon but I am not his judge and neither are you. Bill felt at the time of this writing that Todd was a changed man and recommended his ministry. I trust Bill Johnson but I had other issues with Todd.Update from Bill Johnson on Todd BentleyFamily,Several of the members of Revival Alliance flew to Lakeland, Florida, in 2008 both to observe and bless what God was doing through Todd Bentley. He was taking a lot of hits from highly respected leaders pertaining to that outpouring. We went there to lend our support and possibly add our strengths to the movement. We have all been on the receiving end of similar accusations against what God was doing in our ministries and churches. Each of us had developed a friendship and an informal partnership with Todd over the years. We have had great respect for the gift and anointing upon his life.Before the Lakeland Revival, I had not only worked with Todd in ministry but also met with him, along with some of the core staff from Fresh Fire Ministry, to help him in the broken areas of his marriage. He was advised to cut back on ministry and get help. He did as was requested.Fast forward: I was assured that there was great improvement in the Bentley marriage. Todd started to travel again with great breakthrough anointing. Lakeland actually started fairly soon after his return to travel. The outpouring happened exactly as had been prophesied. Interestingly, after some time in the revival, the same prophet who had prophesied the revival also warned of its collapse if Todd’s personal issues weren’t addressed properly.Within days of Revival Alliance’s time in Lakeland, Todd’s marriage imploded. Both prophetic words were true. We were all grieved for the effect it would have on people who had been touched by Todd’s ministry, especially the young people who looked to Todd as an example to follow. The consequences could be devastating. We grieved over the effect it would have on the Lakeland outpouring, itself, as well as outpourings in general. Our hearts go out to those who have given themselves to unselfishly serve the great work of God only to be let down by its leader. We grieved especially for Todd and his family, who would suffer from the choices that were made.Immediate prayers were offered up for all of the above. Repentance would be needed. Deep repentance. The Revival Alliance team felt it best that I be the one to represent them because of my history with Todd and my involvement with the marriage issues.
BJ, ifn the ole timer come across harshly, that was not his intent. Lets clarify a bit.OTCP’s concerns with Johnson/Joyner have nothing–absolutely nothing–to do with their desire to restore a fallen believer. Restoration of a fallen believer is biblical. Galatians 6:1, If someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person. It would be less-than-Christian to demean anyone for wanting to restore a fallen believer. Restoration, as defined in this discussion, is that process of restoring a person’s covenant relationship with Christ, e.g., via conviction, godly sorrow, repentance, forgiveness, counseling, etc. OTCP would be amongst the first to encourage/promote facilitating such a process.OTCP’s concerns with Johnson/Joyner and ilk, all who rally with an support them, all who seek to emulate them, which includes even some in the COG, is their biblical/theological bent. It is not OTCP’s responsibility to assess the sincerity of these persons, for indeed they may well be extremely sincere. It is, however, OTCP’s responsibility to fulfill the mandate of 1 John 4:1
I haven’t watched the video. But I could handle reports of a glory cloud because I have at least heard of that or something similar from reputable people. However, I have a real problem with gold dust and finding diamonds. It seems to me that both would distract from the true presence of the Lord. Nor do I see gold dust or diamonds in the list in Mark 16that says, These signs shall follow them that believe…________________More of Him…less of me.twitter.com/camiracle77www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=691241499&ref=name
Had anyone seen manna before God gave it in the desert? The Bible doesn’t say that God will never leave diamonds or gold dust laying around, either. I try to keep an open mind about these things, but it does annoy me when I meet people who are fixated on stuff like finding diamonds (which you can’t sell because they are too perfect) or gold-dust looking stuff (that may also have no commercial value). I wonder why they don’t direct their faith toward prayer for salvation, healing, prophecy, etc. When Jesus walked on water and turned water into wine, it did serve a purpose.But I can’t say that God won’t ever cause diamonds or gold dust to appear through whatever means. My wife saw a video about the hands of a preacher that flowed with oil. That kind of grossed me out just a little because I kept thinking of someone frying french fries with oil that came out of someone hands, for some reason. But she prayed to see miracles like that. So she spoke in tongues with this one woman at church she was ministering to and interpreted, and it was something along the lines of the woman receiving a new anointing. And while this was going on, oil appeared on the woman’s forehead, which freaked her out. I asked her if she ever had a greasy head and she said ‘no.’ I saw the oil on her forehead, just a little, very subtle to me, but a big deal to her. The thing is, the oil made sense when combined with the message my wife gave her________________
Had anyone seen manna before God gave it in the desert? The Bible doesn’t say that God will never leave diamonds or gold dust laying around, either. I try to keep an open mind about these things, but it does annoy me when I meet people who are fixated on stuff like finding diamonds (which you can’t sell because they are too perfect) or gold-dust looking stuff (that may also have no commercial value). I wonder why they don’t direct their faith toward prayer for salvation, healing, prophecy, etc. When Jesus walked on water and turned water into wine, it did serve a purpose.But I can’t say that God won’t ever cause diamonds or gold dust to appear through whatever means. My wife saw a video about the hands of a preacher that flowed with oil. That kind of grossed me out just a little because I kept thinking of someone frying french fries with oil that came out of someone hands, for some reason. But she prayed to see miracles like that. So she spoke in tongues with this one woman at church she was ministering to and interpreted, and it was something along the lines of the woman receiving a new anointing. And while this was going on, oil appeared on the woman’s forehead, which freaked her out. I asked her if she ever had a greasy head and she said ‘no.’ I saw the oil on her forehead, just a little, very subtle to me, but a big deal to her. The thing is, the oil made sense when combined with the message my wife gave her.
If someone claimed they had, what would you say________________
by the name of David Hume wrote a famous essay called the Critique of Miracles. Hume (in the midst of the Age of Enlightenment/Reason) wrote that miracles COULD NOT happen because of 2 reasons. 1) A miracle would be a violation of the laws of nature which are unchangeable 2) reports of miracles have only occurred in the presence of uneducated barbarous people whose lack of understanding made them susceptible to attributing explainable events as miracles.Of course his treatise is fatally flawed. 1) If there is a God, then He has the right much less the ability to change or set aside temporarily His own laws that govern the universe. After all, one definition of a miracle would be an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs beyond the norm of nature. In other words, God stepped into this world and superseded His natural law and did something unusual to the norm.Hume’s other tenet is also spurious as even uneducated, barbarous men can see that someone walking on water for example is unexplainable by any man of this world, educated or not.My point is, the Bible is as you already agree, a book of miracles. If you take the miraculous out the Word, there is no God. None that I would be interested in anyway. Just because there was no manna ever before recorded did not mean God couldn’t make some appear every day if He wanted to. Did He do it again after 40 years? No, not that I know of. COuld He? Absolutely. THere was no record of men and women speaking in Tongues before the day of Pentecost. It was a miracle that you will surely preach on tomorrow, I hope. Did He continue it? He is in my life and church and I hope all of ours. I am not a big fan of gold dust, diamonds et al but if He wants to bring them as signs and wonders to an unbelieving world then I say, BRING EM ON!