My Grandmother Daugherty, was preaching all the way back in the 1930’s. She was a life-long minister of the Gospel, but the denomination within which she ministered, did not Ordain women. That didn’t seem to bother her.When she was 72 years old (My Grandfather had passed), she heard of a little church that could not find a Pastor. There was not enough money to support one. So, Grandmother asked to become Pastor of the tiny church located in a very isolated area of the Northwest U.S.She pastored the church for three years and helped increase the congregation to where it could partially support a male Pastor. So, there is no hesitation at all on my part if a denomination decides to Ordain women or not. However, some have stated that
baptistnews.com/article/southern-baptists-lost-million-members-10-years/#.WXeBL-9K2mG
your statement is flawed from the outset [quote it seems groups that have Ordained women, have become more and more liberal with enormous decline being a result. Of course, that is not exclusively the women’s fault. What caused the decline of those once conservative groups, is because they succumbed to social pressures instead of holding the Scriptural line. Members have dropped out or have left with splinter groups that have broken away. [/quote]The Assemblies of God ordained the first woman as a minister in our First General Council in 1914. We have NOT become more liberal (for the most part – as our 16 Tenets of Faith remain the same since our second General Council) and in fact we are one of the fastest growing denominations in America and the Fastest growing denomination in the World. We surpassed the Presbyterians several years ago.
According to the article on the Assemblies of God in the
The word that is translated usurp in 1 Timothy 2:12is authenteo. It is only used one time in the whole New Testament. It has a violent connotation.
Does it really come down to titles?
Growing up in the COGOP I was conditioned by the practice of Ordination of male ministers to the office of Bishop (or Deacon), including the requirements that they be the husband of one wife. At the same time there was a long history of women Licensed Ministers in all most every level of ministry. Within my lifetime women did not vote in the local church, conventions or assemblies, but that changed around 1990, as did their authorization to conduct business conferences and administer sacraments. Before that change (and after), there were women evangelists, camp directors, pastors, state office staff and general appointees. Both A. J. Tomlinson and M. A. Tomlinson appointed women missionaries who oversaw works in Caribbean nations and New Zealand as early as 1935. They were appointed at the assembly along with the State/National Overseers. The works they were responsible for had existing churches they oversaw for the General Overseer. Now we have Ordained Women Ministers, along with women deacons (which are now ordained in the local church, it is not a general ordination as it was at one time), and women still occupy every level of leadership, even district overseer. However, the stopping point is at State/National Overseer and General Overseer. Women serve on the key assembly committees that bring issues (the agenda) to the floor for discussion and vote, in which women fully participate.The title Bishop is the stumbling block. I favor the abandonment of that title in regards to what it says on my ordination. Ordained Minister works for me, and I don’t mind having the same thing as women ministers. Let them minister as God has called them. If they can get themselves elected to leadership, let them lead with their gifts. If they fail, well guys we know what happens to us when we fail. Equal requirements, equal obedience to go, equal duties when you get there. No excuses, male or female alike. In the future, bishop only in function not in ordination!Mat
The entire post is good. ________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
Re: The word "usurp"
If the authority of the COG, the General Assembly, vote for women’s full rights, then women would not be usurping authority. Exactly! If you are commissioned by authority, man or woman, you are not usurping authority (Phoebe). If you’re not, it really does not matter what title you hold.
Almost all religious organizations slowly move toward being more liberal than when founded, even Pentecostal groups. That includes the COG and the AG. In some ways, both the AG and the COG are unrecognizable when compared now to their former ultra-conservatism. Again, I have no problem with women being Ordained. If a particular organization wants to Ordain women, that is up to them. If not, that is up to them too. My point was that Ordaining women will not necessarily bring increased denominational church growth. Also, though I do not have a problem with women being Ordained, one really has to
Please accept my apology if I offended you with the use of chauvinist. However, I meant no disrespect, my usage stems from this definition from the [/i]Free Dictionary[i] 2. Prejudiced belief in the superiority of one’s own gender, group, or kind. It is not pejorative necessarily nor did I intend it to be, merely stating the facts as I see them. Biblical Chauvinists necessarily see scripture with a predisposed bias of men’s superiority over women in leadership roles in the church. You have been taught/learned that men are in a superior role in the church. Bonnie might have a different viewpoint and obviously the AG sees it differently than you and they have some pretty good scholars and would hardly be classified as liberal. Perhaps more liberal than in 1914 but certainly as conservative as the average COG I would think.
Actually, I disagree that any twisting needs to be done to the scripture. I think we just need to look at the whole picture presented in scripture and stop prooftexting. There is also no need to try to find little loopholes like saying Paul was just making personal preferences that weren’t God inspired. What does need to happen is to look at what is being said in the whole epistle of 1 Timothy about what the main issue was at the church at Ephesus.
I have been taught by some very knowledgeable women over the course of my lifetime. Beginning with my mother. Then my teachers in the public schools. My Sunday school teachers. You’ll get no argument from me that God doesn’t use women to teach men or that they need to keep their mouths shut.I still wrestle with the idea of women being overseers simply because Paul does not seem to be arguing from culture, but rather appealing to the order of Creation. But we can agree to disagree. As to the impact on church growth, I’m really not sure what impact the ordination of women contributes, if any. I would be curious to know how many thriving churches are pastored by women. I’m not a chauvinist so that’s not where I’m coming from. But of all the churches I know that are pastored by a female, the attendance is really low. The exception being a Central United Methodist church nearby (but alas they also believe in same-sex marriage and ordination of homosexual clergy). Tell the truth Bonnie- you really just want to add Bishop in front of your name don’t you?
There are a couple of ways to look at this. There may be data somewhere which could answer this, or we could each think of anecdotal examples. In thinking over what I’ve experienced personally, most churches I know of are pastored by men, but I do know of some which are pastored by women. In the Raleigh area, there is a church that runs about 1500 which was co-pastored by gospel singer Shirley Caesar and her husband. I don’t know if she is considered the lead pastor now that her husband is deceased, but Wikipedia says she still delivers weekly sermons. I had heard of her as a singer, but my husband once informed me she pastors a church in Raleigh. Another church I know of where a couple co-pastored and the widow carried on the pastorate afterwards is Christian Faith Center in Creedmoor, NC. Brenda Timberlake continued to pastor after her husband Mack passed on. (When my son played homeschool basketball, we played their Christian school team.) I believe the Timberlakes’ son is now pastoring there and the church runs between 700 and 1000.I have a friend who attends a rural Baptist church which had a female pastor until the Southern Baptist Convention decided to give female pastors the boot. (I believe this was within the last 15 to 20 years.) My friend was very upset because she loved her pastor. My friend and her husband are still quite involved in the church and support their current male pastor. As far as I know the church did well under both the female and the male pastor.Of course this brings up the issue of Southern Baptist Convention. I believe the factions of the Baptists who would restrict women in ministry are gaining more influence in that organization. I do remember when Lifeway Christian Bookstores (run by the SBC publishing house) wouldn’t display a magazine which featured 5 female pastors on the cover. They would sell it to you from under the counter if you asked for it, pretty much treating this like it was a dirty magazine.At that time, some of the basketball practices my son had were held at the gym of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. There was a Lifeway Bookstore in that building, and I remember thinking how pathetic it all seemed to me.www.ethicsdaily.com/report-lifeway-pulls-magazine-featuring-women-preachers-cms-13215
check out New Life Assembly in Pembrooke Pines, Fl (Miami). http://www.nl-fl.org/pastor.htmPastor Maria Kahleel is one of the most dynamic, powerful speakers and leaders in the AG. New Life is running upwards of 700-1000. She is the Lead Pastor and has been for many years now. And here is something for OTCP, she has an earned D. Min from AGTS (Assemblies of God Theological Seminary) but she doesn’t even call herself Doctor. She has been a Presbyter (AB to you) of the Florida District of the AG and served on national AG leadership committees. She is a wonderful example of how God can and does use women in leadership roles if chauvinistic men will allow them to. Just sayin…
Check out the web site of Barbara Yoder in Ann Arbor, MI.. Her church at one time was around 4000. She is the lead pastor and an apostle. Her church has multi-pastors. She is awesome. She was a one time nurse and atheist before she was saved. You can listen to some of her online sermons.