Our church just went through the process of purchasing our building. The Church of God did not underwrite us at all. In fact, my name and the name of several families are listed on the loan and all documents listed with the city, county and state. The only place the CoG is listed is if the MISSION Church of God goes down to nothing and their is no one to take on the liability of the property. Truly, this building is controlled by me and the trustees and this information has been verified by our attorney. As far as feeling like a slave to the denomination, there are times when I wish the CoG was more involved in some of the operations of our churches. Probably, one of my biggest complaints is that the CoG is too slow in helping out some of our churches.
There is no question this is a big temptation. Pastor’s take note of this and most of their members could not care much less. The body of Christ is there to be fed and nurtured. Looking at finances, I know it must be a scary thing for a pastor, but faith should trump that, if in fact the pastor feels it is God’s will, God will take care of him. We all have seen the COG pastor go independent and his attempt at organizing an independent work fail, and conversely saw them prosper. To be honest I despise hearing a preacher who constantly complains about something they agreed with. Get in or Get out and have some peace of mind.As a member I do think the local church should hold title to property, it is not a deal breaker to me. I won’t see it, but eventually the COG will become more congregational. It is now, in the large churches it seems. ________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
First, when I heard that some of the pastors were saying they would leave the denomination today if the denomination didn’t own their property, I realized that these men have already left in their heart. Was the denomination treating them badly? Do they disagree with church doctrine? On an on. I’m guessing that the REAL reason is almost certainly a less worthy reason….Here is a scenario…. An independent church that hundreds of people attend goes off the rails doctrinally. Too bad. Either leave or shut up. Nothing you can do unless you have some sort of controlling interest in the church.Another one…. The pastor of an independent church decides that he wants to have a mistress. The board of trustees are beholden to him and perhaps even agree with him. Either leave or shut up. But in the Church of God you make a phone call to the regional or administrative bishop. Somebody is going to show up to see if there is a real issue. If there is, the Church of God has the legal authority to do what needs to be done.I do believe that a church that pays for the property should own the property. HOWEVER, I also believe that there should be a couple of caveats that permit the Church of God to have LEGAL authority over a local church:1) Moral Failure.2) Doctrinal Infidelity3) (?) Imminent financial ruin.4) Failure to report and/or maintain obligations to the Church of God.In all other cases, let the church do as they will. In all other cases, let the church do as they wish. Build. Borrow. Etc. But if any of these triggers are pulled, the Church of God should have the authority to come in and do what needs to be done per the Minutes.But guess what? THAT HAS NEVER BEEN WHAT IT IS ABOUT, HAS IT? The folks who want out of the Church of God and bemoan denominational leadership are very likely not to agree to even these exceptions. Why? Because they don’t want the Church of God AT ALL (except, perhaps, for the connections it provides to them).A big deal is that some pastors see a lot of money going to headquarters that they feel could be put to better use in the local church. Well, DUH! Of course we could do more things with 10% extra. But that is not what it’s about! That 10% goes to do things at a much bigger level that what a local church can do. Consider that if we all just skipped sending any money to the Church of God to help with Hurricane Harvey…and just found a church to send the money directly to. Nothing particular is wrong with that–I imagine most of us have done such things. But at the same time consider that the church with the best social media outreach, the church that is best known, the pastor that has the most connections…is likely to be the one that gets the lion’s share of the monies sent. While some faithful but small church…is left out.The denomination isn’t perfect by a long shot. But far more than I fear the denomination, I fear those pastors that have divorce in their hearts…almost always because of MONEY.
Let’s say you pastor an independent (Congregational governed) church.You have a Church Constitution that protects the pastor and the members.You have a Church Constitution that clearly defines your doctrinal positions.The Church Conference posses the power to fire your sorry but if you go wacko.It’s called due process.Since 1989 that’s how we roll. ________________Charles A. HutchinsSenior Pastor SPWCCongregational Church of Godwww.spwc.church
I wouldn’t doubt that Harvester/Earl Paulk, Jr. had safeguards in place. But here is the problem….While we know that the church structure you mention CAN work and often DOES work, its weakness can be that is often executed by people VERY CLOSE to the issue (i.e., right in the same church). It might be a blood brother or sister to the pastor…close friends…etc. Now, can that same thing happen in a denomination? Of course. But it is much less likely, I think, due to that overseer, or executives almost always being well-removed from the issue. This gives them a vantage point and an authority that would (if it had been reported) almost certainly stopped the Paulk fiasco. An persuasive pastor might be able to swing the vote his way in an independent church. But in the Church of God (at least in theory!), he would not be able to have a vote to stop the executives from removing him (if that was needed). About the best that he could do would be to leave the church, take a big group with him, and start another church.
My understanding (from my dad who was a pioneer Pastor in the COG, that there has always been one or two churches in ever state who ‘owned their church’. Nealsville, NC, a small mountain church, is one. The members have always owned the church. They are handled by the overseer with different rules (not written of course) but when the men of the church decide they need a change of pastors, it was always done. I am very familiar with the families there and they are absolutely wonderful folk, but they know they have a hand up on their sister churches on the district.Denominational or independent the church lives or dies on the life of a faithful man of integrity who is a true man of God.The independent churches I have known are good churches. I know two exceptions, Paulk was mentioned, then my cousin whom I will not name was the other. Both were COG and BOTH were wolves in sheeps clothing.We can all name COG preachers who ruined good churches. I have no doubt some overseers have ‘forced good men out’, but in all my time in the COG as a pastor and a pew sitter, I have never been lied to or mislead by overseers and leadership. Thank God. really, THANK GOD________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
Sheepdogandy, if I may ask, what were the specific causes that caused your church to leave the Church of God?Quite literally a lunatic state overseer.He was called in by our pastor to address complaints.His solution was to remove most of the duly elected Church officers and replace them without any due process.He removed one lady who had taught the Ladies Sunday School class for forty years.She had absolutely nothing to do with the situation.Some of the replacements did not even attend our Church must less were members.His demeanor was extremely brash and downright rude to say the least.He informed us in no uncertain terms that the Church belonged to him and he would do whatever he pleased with it.The members who paid the bills would have no say.So, we left________________Charles A. HutchinsSenior Pastor SPWCCongregational Church of Godwww.spwc.church
And if your name is Swaggart and get caught with your pants down – you tell the denomination to pound sand – and go back to what you were doing before – after stripping the AG sign off the door. You answer to no one on earth. Sounds almost perfect________________
Asked and answered. Thanks SD.I do not doubt it has happened. Thankfully I have never been involved in something like that, (I’m smiling) I am sure you had not either. Ignorance, and a need to ‘BE in charge’ has hurt many good pastors.One is too many, but thank goodness most of our overseers have exhibited more common sense.________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
Of the four overseers I experienced only one possessed the integrity to hold the office.J. Frank Culpepper, taught me in one evening everything I needed to know to do what I do now.Pastor a Congregation.Of the other three.One lied, another didn’t care and the last was a lunatic. imhoGod did have a purpose in allowing the events that led to our leaving Cleveland.Pentecost is not fading away.Our recent Youth Conference proved that________________Charles A. HutchinsSenior Pastor SPWCCongregational Church of Godwww.spwc.church
If I was going to start a work, I would rent a facility until the cows come home. If we needed our own building I would do it under the umbrella of a separate nonprofit organization and let the church rent it from that.Just my two cents from my rocking chair. ________________
This has been hinted at before on this board, and I find it very concerning. Obviously, it is hard for those of us reading to know exactly how things happened, but if it happened as suggested here, there are problems that haven’t been dealt with. It is certainly not unheard of for churches to try to cover up abuse. It happens frequently, and it’s wrong. That situation fails to protect potential future victims.
Our church just went through the process of purchasing our building. The Church of God did not underwrite us at all. In fact, my name and the name of several families are listed on the loan and all documents listed with the city, county and state. The only place the CoG is listed is if the MISSION Church of God goes down to nothing and their is no one to take on the liability of the property. Truly, this building is controlled by me and the trustees and this information has been verified by our attorney. As far as feeling like a slave to the denomination, there are times when I wish the CoG was more involved in some of the operations of our churches. Probably, one of my biggest complaints is that the CoG is too slow in helping out some of our churches.
Re: Property Control makes Slaves
There is no question this is a big temptation. Pastor’s take note of this and most of their members could not care much less. The body of Christ is there to be fed and nurtured. Looking at finances, I know it must be a scary thing for a pastor, but faith should trump that, if in fact the pastor feels it is God’s will, God will take care of him. We all have seen the COG pastor go independent and his attempt at organizing an independent work fail, and conversely saw them prosper. To be honest I despise hearing a preacher who constantly complains about something they agreed with. Get in or Get out and have some peace of mind.As a member I do think the local church should hold title to property, it is not a deal breaker to me. I won’t see it, but eventually the COG will become more congregational. It is now, in the large churches it seems. ________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
WELL!What do you know? ________________Charles A. HutchinsSenior Pastor SPWCCongregational Church of Godwww.spwc.church
First, when I heard that some of the pastors were saying they would leave the denomination today if the denomination didn’t own their property, I realized that these men have already left in their heart. Was the denomination treating them badly? Do they disagree with church doctrine? On an on. I’m guessing that the REAL reason is almost certainly a less worthy reason….Here is a scenario…. An independent church that hundreds of people attend goes off the rails doctrinally. Too bad. Either leave or shut up. Nothing you can do unless you have some sort of controlling interest in the church.Another one…. The pastor of an independent church decides that he wants to have a mistress. The board of trustees are beholden to him and perhaps even agree with him. Either leave or shut up. But in the Church of God you make a phone call to the regional or administrative bishop. Somebody is going to show up to see if there is a real issue. If there is, the Church of God has the legal authority to do what needs to be done.I do believe that a church that pays for the property should own the property. HOWEVER, I also believe that there should be a couple of caveats that permit the Church of God to have LEGAL authority over a local church:1) Moral Failure.2) Doctrinal Infidelity3) (?) Imminent financial ruin.4) Failure to report and/or maintain obligations to the Church of God.In all other cases, let the church do as they will. In all other cases, let the church do as they wish. Build. Borrow. Etc. But if any of these triggers are pulled, the Church of God should have the authority to come in and do what needs to be done per the Minutes.But guess what? THAT HAS NEVER BEEN WHAT IT IS ABOUT, HAS IT? The folks who want out of the Church of God and bemoan denominational leadership are very likely not to agree to even these exceptions. Why? Because they don’t want the Church of God AT ALL (except, perhaps, for the connections it provides to them).A big deal is that some pastors see a lot of money going to headquarters that they feel could be put to better use in the local church. Well, DUH! Of course we could do more things with 10% extra. But that is not what it’s about! That 10% goes to do things at a much bigger level that what a local church can do. Consider that if we all just skipped sending any money to the Church of God to help with Hurricane Harvey…and just found a church to send the money directly to. Nothing particular is wrong with that–I imagine most of us have done such things. But at the same time consider that the church with the best social media outreach, the church that is best known, the pastor that has the most connections…is likely to be the one that gets the lion’s share of the monies sent. While some faithful but small church…is left out.The denomination isn’t perfect by a long shot. But far more than I fear the denomination, I fear those pastors that have divorce in their hearts…almost always because of MONEY.
Let’s say you pastor an independent (Congregational governed) church.You have a Church Constitution that protects the pastor and the members.You have a Church Constitution that clearly defines your doctrinal positions.The Church Conference posses the power to fire your sorry but if you go wacko.It’s called due process.Since 1989 that’s how we roll. ________________Charles A. HutchinsSenior Pastor SPWCCongregational Church of Godwww.spwc.church
I wouldn’t doubt that Harvester/Earl Paulk, Jr. had safeguards in place. But here is the problem….While we know that the church structure you mention CAN work and often DOES work, its weakness can be that is often executed by people VERY CLOSE to the issue (i.e., right in the same church). It might be a blood brother or sister to the pastor…close friends…etc. Now, can that same thing happen in a denomination? Of course. But it is much less likely, I think, due to that overseer, or executives almost always being well-removed from the issue. This gives them a vantage point and an authority that would (if it had been reported) almost certainly stopped the Paulk fiasco. An persuasive pastor might be able to swing the vote his way in an independent church. But in the Church of God (at least in theory!), he would not be able to have a vote to stop the executives from removing him (if that was needed). About the best that he could do would be to leave the church, take a big group with him, and start another church.
My understanding (from my dad who was a pioneer Pastor in the COG, that there has always been one or two churches in ever state who ‘owned their church’. Nealsville, NC, a small mountain church, is one. The members have always owned the church. They are handled by the overseer with different rules (not written of course) but when the men of the church decide they need a change of pastors, it was always done. I am very familiar with the families there and they are absolutely wonderful folk, but they know they have a hand up on their sister churches on the district.Denominational or independent the church lives or dies on the life of a faithful man of integrity who is a true man of God.The independent churches I have known are good churches. I know two exceptions, Paulk was mentioned, then my cousin whom I will not name was the other. Both were COG and BOTH were wolves in sheeps clothing.We can all name COG preachers who ruined good churches. I have no doubt some overseers have ‘forced good men out’, but in all my time in the COG as a pastor and a pew sitter, I have never been lied to or mislead by overseers and leadership. Thank God. really, THANK GOD________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
Re: Sheepdogandy…
Sheepdogandy, if I may ask, what were the specific causes that caused your church to leave the Church of God?Quite literally a lunatic state overseer.He was called in by our pastor to address complaints.His solution was to remove most of the duly elected Church officers and replace them without any due process.He removed one lady who had taught the Ladies Sunday School class for forty years.She had absolutely nothing to do with the situation.Some of the replacements did not even attend our Church must less were members.His demeanor was extremely brash and downright rude to say the least.He informed us in no uncertain terms that the Church belonged to him and he would do whatever he pleased with it.The members who paid the bills would have no say.So, we left________________Charles A. HutchinsSenior Pastor SPWCCongregational Church of Godwww.spwc.church
And if your name is Swaggart and get caught with your pants down – you tell the denomination to pound sand – and go back to what you were doing before – after stripping the AG sign off the door. You answer to no one on earth. Sounds almost perfect________________
Re: Sheepdogandy…
Asked and answered. Thanks SD.I do not doubt it has happened. Thankfully I have never been involved in something like that, (I’m smiling) I am sure you had not either. Ignorance, and a need to ‘BE in charge’ has hurt many good pastors.One is too many, but thank goodness most of our overseers have exhibited more common sense.________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
Of the four overseers I experienced only one possessed the integrity to hold the office.J. Frank Culpepper, taught me in one evening everything I needed to know to do what I do now.Pastor a Congregation.Of the other three.One lied, another didn’t care and the last was a lunatic. imhoGod did have a purpose in allowing the events that led to our leaving Cleveland.Pentecost is not fading away.Our recent Youth Conference proved that________________Charles A. HutchinsSenior Pastor SPWCCongregational Church of Godwww.spwc.church
So the blessing of the denomination holding control over the property isWhen you have a crazy overseer you still have to stay. Lol
If I was going to start a work, I would rent a facility until the cows come home. If we needed our own building I would do it under the umbrella of a separate nonprofit organization and let the church rent it from that.Just my two cents from my rocking chair. ________________
This is very concerning
This has been hinted at before on this board, and I find it very concerning. Obviously, it is hard for those of us reading to know exactly how things happened, but if it happened as suggested here, there are problems that haven’t been dealt with. It is certainly not unheard of for churches to try to cover up abuse. It happens frequently, and it’s wrong. That situation fails to protect potential future victims.