Just watched a video on facebook.A messianic Rabbi said that the shepherds watching their flock by night were Levitical shepherds.The sheep they were watching were for sacrifice in the temple.These sheep were born in nearby caves and swaddled after they were born.Thus a connection between The Lord and the sacrificial sheep.Is this correct________________Charles A. HutchinsSenior Pastor SPWCCongregational Church of Godwww.spwc.church
The Rabbi emphasized swaddling clothes and manger (feed trough), as elements that would provoke the shepherds curiosity.For me an Angelic appearance would have been enough. ________________Charles A. HutchinsSenior Pastor SPWCCongregational Church of Godwww.spwc.church
Yes, and this is what I was referring to in Link’s thread the other day about Jesus being born in a manger.This was written by a pastor in SC that I know, James Gray. I’ve known his family all my life. He shared this on Facebook a few years ago, and I asked him for permission to share it with my Sunday School class. He usually puts it on FB every year around Christmas. Here it is:“We like to say that Jesus was born in the lowest of places in the worst of situations. As if it weren’t enough that He completely gave up all that He was in heaven to become like us on earth (Philippians 2:6-8), we pile on by placing the new-born Baby in a barn behind a sold-out inn somewhere in the town of Bethlehem. But some of what we say is wrong.There was a tower in Bethlehem called Migdal Eder. It was a place used by shepherds to watch the flock, protecting them from predators and keeping the sheep from wandering off. It had a cave-like structure where the shepherds would take the pregnant ewes ready to give birth. The place was designed specifically for this purpose. The lambs being born would be wrapped in ‘swaddling clothes’ to protect them from injury and to keep them warm.THE ASSERTIONThat is where Jesus was born!HISTORICAL SUPPORTDating as far back as Origen (early church father, 3rd century AD), tradition pointed to Migdal Eder as the birth place of the Savior.Constantine and Justinian, Roman emperors, built monuments on the spot where Migdal Eder was supposed to be – Justinian’s Basilica of the Nativity still stands today.Just google Migdal Eder and you will be able to read a lot of the same articles that I’ve read over the years in helping me come to these conclusions.OLD TESTAMENT PROPHECYJewish scholars (opinions based on Micah 4:8, other Scriptures, and oral tradition) considered Migdal Eder the place where the Messiah would be born.(Just a quick aside in case you look up Micah 4:8. The verse uses the phrase watchtower of the flock; that is the translation of Migdal Eder. I won’t take the time to dissect this passage, but it’s definitely a reference to the coming of the Messiah.)THE REAL STORYMary and Joseph couldn’t get a room in the inn, but she was about to give birth. Where would be the best place to go? Where they knew other births were happening – albeit sheep. There were practical reasons for going there, but the simple truth is THAT is where God wanted His Son to be born. Why?Because the flock of Bethlehem, only a few miles from Jerusalem, were the sheep used for proper sacrifices at the Temple in Jerusalem. Those sheep born at Migdal Eder were destined to be slaughtered one day as part of the divine instructions for temple worship! They were born to die as sacrifices!So there’s Mary giving birth to the Son of God, born as the one sacrifice for sins forever (Hebrews 10:12); chances were there were a dozen or so pregnant ewes also ready to give birth. And what did Joseph do? He took the new-born Child and wrapped Him in swaddling clothes, the same clothes used to wrap those all-important new-born lambs. He laid Him in the manger.THE MANGERThe manger may have been a ‘feeding trough’ like we have always pictured it, but only full-term pregnant sheep would have been there. This wasn’t a barn to hold a bunch of animals, and the overwhelming majority of the flock of sheep would have been outside because the sheep in Bethlehem were kept outside 24 hours a day all year long. So Mary didn’t have to step over the donkey dung and sidestep the cows to give birth to the Son of God!Also, the Greek word used for ‘manger’ in Luke 2can be translated ‘stall’ (Luke13:15), ‘stable’ or even ‘crib’ – yes, a crib. In other words, Jesus may not necessarily have been placed in a feeding trough, but just laid down to sleep in the stall beside the other new-born lambs. Mary gave birth to a Lamb – THE Lamb – just like those pregnant ewes were doing. It was a clean place, a place designed to provide comfort and safety for these most-important lambs in all of Israel.THE SHEPHERDSShepherds were the lowest of Jewish society. They were not trusted – their testimony not usually permitted in court. If anything was ever stolen, there was an assumption that a shepherd did it. They were like modern-day gypsies, travelling to and fro – for obvious reasons.They were always ceremonially unclean – handling dead animals, assisting in the birth of new ones, dealing with all manner of issues in the wilderness that would cause them to become and remain unclean. Because of the nature of their job, they would not be able to take the time to become clean.Many suggest that God offered to them the first news of the Messiah’s birth because of society’s poor treatment of them.But these shepherds were different.Ever wonder how they knew where to go find the Babe? (Every time I’ve asked this in a Bible study, someone answers: the star. Not so, the Magi were following the star – not the shepherds.) They would have had to spend all night searching behind every inn in Bethlehem, looking for Mary, Joseph, and Jesus. But they knew where to go, because they knew the prophecies of Scripture and the traditions of the Jewish scribes.These shepherds were specially trained shepherds who took their jobs seriously. They were in charge of the flock in Bethlehem that supplied the Temple sacrifices. They knew the Law; they understood how important it was for the sacrificial lambs to be spotless and perfect. They would have protected those animals and would have especially made sure that the new-borns were taken care of.When the angels came and told them of the Messiah’s birth, they didn’t have to tell them where to go look, because they already knew where to look – at Migdal Eder!THE PURPOSEGod is specific. He wouldn’t waste this opportunity to just let His Son be born in any old barn. The symbolism is so obvious and so strong. THE Lamb of God, the One who would be sacrificed for our sin, was born where THE ACTUAL lambs were born who were sacrificed for the sins of the Jews at the Jerusalem Temple as prescribed by God’s Law.I’m not suggesting we throw away our nativity scenes. But I am concerned that our traditional view of the Savior’s birth in Bethlehem has robbed us of the tremendous spiritual truth of God’s foreshadowing His Son’s death by orchestrating His birth at Migdal Eder, the ‘tower of the flock’ at Bethlehem________________More of Him…less of me.twitter.com/camiracle77www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=691241499&ref=name
I just read, probably from my friend who got a Master’s degree in Hebrew translation who constantly reads stuff on Judaism in the first century, that some scholars called ‘rabbis’ considered shepherds to be unclean. If that were really the case, then Levitical shepherds seems unlikely.This sounds like these men would have been operating in a corrupt system, since in the Bible the flocks are supposed to come from the people. Instead, they were requiring that sheep be purchased for sacrifice, maybe under the guise of guaranteeing unblemished livestock, but this likely made profits. Did the person speaking on this give any source for it? Some Messianic Jews may have deep knowledge and insight into Biblical history and Jewish culture that is helpful, but from personal experience I can also tell you that there are also really unscholarly teachings and a lot of fluff, and some damaging stuff. But I could say the same for Pentecostalism, too. If someone tells me the napkin put on the corpse of a dead body was folded a certain way to indicate something about the marriage supper in Jewish customs or this about Levitical shepherds, I’d like to see a source. A lot of the cool cultural things we hear might be true, but many probably aren’t and ‘the preacher said so’ doesn’t cut it________________
Yeah, that’s why I asked for feedback from y’all.I don’t take the preacher said it either.I instruct my congregation to read for themselves and search the Scriptures for themselves.No matter how much they love me. ________________Charles A. HutchinsSenior Pastor SPWCCongregational Church of Godwww.spwc.church
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithwalkers/2012/12/was-jesus-born-away-in-a-manger-at-migdal-eder/www.cbn.com/special/thenativitymovie/articles/whybethlehem.aspxThere are several articles you can find through Google, as my friend said. Sounds pretty plausible to me. The websites are not done by nut jobs________________More of Him…less of me.twitter.com/camiracle77www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=691241499&ref=name
I wish I could have said that. You express how I feel. I am not knocking the story either. ________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
Some things like this are out there, but I didn’t think this one was. I don’t think of it as embellishing the story, though I guess some people are doing that. It just seems really cool to me________________More of Him…less of me.twitter.com/camiracle77www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=691241499&ref=name
The Perry Stone syndrome.I get it.I get the Sheik’s point also.Confirmation, I need confirmation! A great line in the Tora, Tora, Tora movie.As I have gotten older, I have become wary, don’t want to be cynical, just want to be factual________________Charles A. HutchinsSenior Pastor SPWCCongregational Church of Godwww.spwc.church
***APPLAUSE***I have heard people try to make feeding the 5000 into something like feeding 20,000. WHY???? It is just as impossible to feed 5000 with five loaves and two fishes–and take up 12 baskets of leftovers–as it is to feed 20,000. Impossible is impossible.There are things that MAY be true–e.g., John the Baptist was the son of the high priest, and was to have assumed that role–but are not only not necessarily true…but are not necessary at all!My issue is NOT whether those shepherds were Levitical shepherds or what have you. No, my problem–and it’s a HUGE problem!–is that preachers will often get up and confidently and authoritatively say, These were Levitical shepherds, etc. And those who hear this can easily assume that, Well, the preacher knows what he’s talking about, when he snatched that out of thin air, etc.If you preface it with, I don’t know if this is the case, but it makes sense… then fine. But don’t DARE preach it as the gospel truth unless you KNOW it’s the truth.One of my favorites is the one where the whole women keeping quiet in church was because…the woman were calling out across the room to their husbands to ask what this or that meant during the sermon. HOGWASH. That’s just somebody who couldn’t figure out why Paul said what he did, so they made up something.
A reference for information concerning the shepherds in Luke 2:8
For those who do not have access to Edersheim’s book here is a link I just found when I googled it:jesus.org.uk/sites/default/files/media/documents/books/others/edersheim_lifetimes_of_jesus_vol1.pdf
For those who do not have access to Edersheim’s book here is a link I just found when I googled it:jesus.org.uk/sites/default/files/media/documents/books/others/edersheim_lifetimes_of_jesus_vol1.pdfPage 122 and following…great read during this time of the year! Merry Christmas!! Also referenced in the links to the articles I shared________________More of Him…less of me.twitter.com/camiracle77www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=691241499&ref=name
For those who do not have access to Edersheim’s book here is a link I just found when I googled it:jesus.org.uk/sites/default/files/media/documents/books/others/edersheim_lifetimes_of_jesus_vol1.pdfPage 122 and following…great read during this time of the year! Merry Christmas!! Also referenced in the links to the articles I shared.
For those who do not have access to Edersheim’s book here is a link I just found when I googled it:jesus.org.uk/sites/default/files/media/documents/books/others/edersheim_lifetimes_of_jesus_vol1.pdfPage 122 and following…great read during this time of the year! Merry Christmas!! Also referenced in the links to the articles I shared.
For those who do not have access to Edersheim’s book here is a link I just found when I googled it:jesus.org.uk/sites/default/files/media/documents/books/others/edersheim_lifetimes_of_jesus_vol1.pdfPage 122 and following…great read during this time of the year! Merry Christmas!! Also referenced in the links to the articles I shared. Oops, my bad! No problem. One would have to actually look at the articles to see this. At least we know it’s not some modern message just to be exciting or try to find a new angle. It appears to be quite well researched________________More of Him…less of me.twitter.com/camiracle77www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=691241499&ref=name
You say this like it’s a bad thing. ________________More of Him…less of me.twitter.com/camiracle77www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=691241499&ref=name
Nope, I’m sure PS is a good ol boy.Never met him.It’s all the secret sources that give me pause________________Charles A. HutchinsSenior Pastor SPWCCongregational Church of Godwww.spwc.church