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I have been thinking on this for quite a while now. Is it our job to tell them what sin is or is it God's job to tell them what is sin. Brad posted a thread about things that use to be sin and it's really funny because I remember when all those things were sin. That thought(use to be sin) confused me greatly as a kid. I would be told that things were sin and when I went to scripture, I couldn't find them? That's probably the reason I could care less about the church as a child. At some point in my pastorate, I came to the conclusion to let people grow as God grows them. We will teach them, preach to them, study scripture with them and advise them but ultimately let the Spirit convict them. With that said, last night at our men's bible study a friend of mine was there. We have been friends since high school. He was the big strong jock, who made good grades and I was the skinny, poor, pimply faced boy from the other side of the tracks. I have been after this guy since high school and in the last 5 years - I have been able to perform his wedding to a woman he had been with since high school(8 kids together) and in the last year he has given his heart to God, joined the church, pays tithes(on his own), is an usher and assists where needed. The problem with Brian is he still uses foul language, drinks from time to time and slips in others ways. Last night in our meeting this big strong tough guy - broke down and started confessing his failures to our group. He used a word or 2 that were sins but he was reaching out for help. My question/thought is, if this was the church I grew up in, would we have allowed him to continue coming to church or would we have shut him down with the first slip of the tongue?

Wayne-1st- Praise God for what He has done and is doing in your friend's life. Thank you for being there for him. God is using you in this man's life in a way that I wouldn't even have access to. Relationship and trust. This is the way in which the Lord uses me too and I believe is consistent with much of what Jesus Himself did and that the early church did.2nd- To your point: I believe in Sanctification like the DOF states AND I believe in Sanctification being a progressive or in progress work of the Holy Spirit. When I was a child... when I became a man... since we know that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever... since He is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world... since he knew us before the foundation of the world... since He is coming again for us and has prepared a place for us... since we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling...I am saved. I am being saved. I will be saved.I am sanctified. I am being sanctified. I will be sanctified.I am filled with the Holy Ghost. I am being filled with the Holy Ghost. I will be made Holy.I struggled as a boy and young man to identify with the word Saint. I struggled with some of our interpretation of Christian Perfection in our Wesleyan Holiness movement. I still cringe when I hear certain phrases but have accepted the people who use those phrases as sincere followers of Jesus. I have decided to uphold our teachings while practicing grace and love in the mission field that I have been assigned. This isn't disloyal to Scripture or to our teachings. They mesh together. It is still the Blood of Jesus that redeems us and cleanses us. It is still the Holy Ghost Who baptizes us, teaches us and empowers us. Let God do what only God does Proverbs 3:5-6; John 13:34-35; Acts 1:8

Paul told young Pastor Timothy to exhort, reprove, and rebuke, with all longsuffering (patience) and doctrine (teaching).Obviously, we can't do the Holy Spirit's job for Him, but we've just as clearly been called to exhort, reprove and rebuke, and the Spirit works through us.As to your question of not letting them (people who are definitely not yet entirely sanctified) come to church, I must say the way the Holiness-Pentecostal movement has usually practiced church discipline has always been a curiosity to me. The Apostle Paul in 1 Cor. 5 did have to administer severe discipline to the church for its lax standard, and he did command they excommunicate the man who was sleeping with his father's wife, but even that was with a view to his repentance and restoration to righteous living. It seems to me that the way the early church was to deal with what I'd characterize as more normal sins in the lives of believers was to exhort, reprove and rebuke, with all patience and teaching. 'Kicking someone out of the church' seems to be reserved only for the most egregious, arrogant, unrepentant cases of persistence in gross sin, and even then, it was with a view to their repentance and restoration, not their destruction or damnation. Also, I should hasten to add that reproving, rebuking and disfellowshipping should only be for biblically defined sins, or actions that certainly can be logically considered sinful based on biblical principle, such as smoking and gambling, for example.

2 Cor. 13:1This is the third time I am coming to you. Every charge must be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 2I warned those who sinned before and all the others, and I warn them now while absent, as I did when present on my second visit, that if I come again I will not spare them— 3since you seek proof that Christ is speaking in me. He is not weak in dealing with you, but is powerful among you. 4For he was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but in dealing with you we will live with him by the power of God.

I wish I could write/type as well as you fellers. Again, I was from the other side of the tracks.This is probably a topic I harp on way too much but, what

Having been there Wayne, I understand where you are coming from. I appreciate your post. Stay your course my friend. Love and nurture! Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/

There was a time we were too guilty of micro-managing what we considered the RIGHT WAY. WE were sure the Lord needed us more in that area.To try to explain my feelings, 'There is nothing wrong with stating the obvious at the right time.' Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/

This is a timely post. My podcast this week is on forgiveness and one of the questions I answer is What is sin?Rom. 14:23 says whatever is not of faith is sin.We have to come to grips with the fact that what is sin changes. It used to be a sin to eat meat offered to idols (see Acts 15), then Paul said it wasn't (Rom. 14:14; 1 Cor. 8; 1 Cor 10). It used to be a sin to eat pork. Now we are free to eat anything (1 Tim. 4:4). It used to be a sin to work on the Sabbath. But we are no longer under the law (Rom. 6:14).So, what is sin is defined by what our faith allows...like it or not. More faith = more freedom. Weak faith = more rules.Rom. 14:22 The faith which you have,

Brad,

That's a great question Wayne. So much of what we have been told is sin is someone's personal opinion. Do you think it's still a sin to break the Sabbath? Or did that change I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!My website: www.bradfreeman.comMy blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/