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| Are there churches that are beyond help? https://acts20.com/viewtopic.php?t=83815 |
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| Author: | acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Aaron Scott: Are there churches that are beyond help? |
| I have heard some ministers that I have great respect for speak of churches that, do what they might, they just could not get it to go.Sometimes, this came out with a bit of anger/bitterness...such as, Those people didn't want to change, or what have you.And sometimes it was much more benign, as in: We tried various things, but nothing seemed to work. We wanted it to work, but the (you name it--town, community, culture, people, age groups, music, workers, etc.) just didn't work out.ARE THERE CHURCHES THAT WILL NEVER AGAIN BE ON ANYTHING MORE THAN LIFE SUPPORT?If a church cannot pay its bills, that's a pretty good sign that it needs to be closed. Especially if it's due to having a very small attendance. But what about those churches that bring in enough money to pay the bills, yet still are not making much headway?Should we base it on the number of visitors? salvations? what? How do we discern when a church really needs to fold its resources into another church that is being more effective?To say that a church CAN advance under the right leadership is probably true. But the fact is that many failing churches cannot attract or afford the sort of leadership that could transform them. For instance, if you wanted a T.L. Lowery to come pastor, well, unless he had a specific word from the Lord, he's going to have to bypass a lot of bigger, wealthier, more vibrant churches that would also like such a pastor's services. So we're right back where we started. To say that it COULD do better under the right conditions, but to not be able to bring about those conditions, gives us the same result, right? |
| Author: | acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | c6thplayer1: |
| C6thplayer... |
| Author: | acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Aaron Scott: |
| I know where you're coming from, bro. At the same time, when you consider that resources could be freed up for greater service...it's not an easy choice, I don't think.Consider if we had five small churches in an area. Each are paying a pastor something (usually), they may be paying a mortgage, and are certainly paying a light bill.If you sold two of those properties, folding the people into another church with as much sweetness and wisdom as you could, those churches might reach the point of critical mass...or at least some degree of financial self-sufficiency...or might even be able to pay the pastor a salary...etc.You get the idea.For instance, I doubt most of us would think it's fine for a church to have a million dollar property, have 8 people in church, no growth for years, and other, nearby churches that are growing but needy.We'd surely want to see some sort of balance in terms of the kingdom. I don't know that we would be right...but we might feel that way anyway. Especially if it was our church that was growing and struggling. |
| Author: | acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Cojak: |
| A tough call. Yesterday I posted about a church I pastored 50 years ago, One church was birthed from this little church in that time. It was not a joyful birth as is many times but the 'Other' church has done well. The church I pastored averaged less than 40, still does. I had a good time there worshiping with the folks and praising God, but as a kid I tried everything I could that came out of HQ, nada. The only LIVE convert was due to my oldest son who was 5 at the time. He brought little Jimmy his buddy in and Jimmy brought his mama in. She stayed. Should the church stay open? It is paying its bills and reporting it always has. Everyone needs a pastor, one that loves them even if they are not 'productive'.Will this church grow? I doubt it. The people in the town, if they want to attend a COG would have to travel 10 miles. When I was there Half the people got there by the pastors car, and I didn't mind. In the end, yep it should stay open. The people think they own the church it would hurt their souls if it was sold out from under them. I don't like that thought. Sorry to ramble. Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
| Author: | acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Clint Wills: As far as closing churches... |
| I'd probably lean more toward closing ineffective churches than most. However, even I would be very hesitant to close the doors on any church that meets all of its own financial obligations. While I think there is a lot more to being effective for the Kingdom than paying all your bills, I do have a hard time telling that church that they aren't getting it done. |
| Author: | acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Cojak: Re: As far as closing churches... |
| Good point Clint, I also agree if the church cannot meet its obligations, it is a different story. I know of two churches where the jobs have moved away, leaving only the retired folk and other seniors who have paid into this church for years. They pay the bills, The death knell is on the church, but not yet.I come from a little town that has fast become the bedroom for a large city. The council passed an ordinacne that there will be no chickens inside the city limits. I tried to get them to allow a grandfather clause, only two old women had chickens, I pointed out the problem would solve itself in a few years, but they took the ladies chickens.The churches I know will die a natural death, no sense in Killing them. Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
| Author: | acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | JLarry: |
| In 1978 I went to pastor a church that was running about 20. If I remember right the church was founded in the 40's. To my knowledge it never ran over 20 for a period of time. In almost three years we go up to over 30. A good man followed me and stayed 16 years. Before he left he built a new church and was running over 300.So I suppose the answer would be yes.I went to a church that was running about 50 and the first Sunday we had 80. It was obviously not me if so the church I left would have ran much more. They simply needed a change. My timing was good, timing is very important. I went to one church and the timing was bad, very bad Recorded Sermons @ www.pastorwiley.com |
| Author: | acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Quiet Wyatt: |
| Everybody who lives around here says tear that lighthouse down,The big ships don't pass this way anymore, |
| Author: | acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Clint Wills: |
| I would ask the question a little differently...what is the purpose of the church? Are we here simply so that we can gather together and hang out with our friends once a week? Do we leave an organization alone just because the people there are happy and want to continue to get together? I can't answer those things one the denominational level, but as a pastor I can answer it on a local level. If our small groups stopped making disciples and became a social club that simply wanted to get together and taste each others cooking, it would be over. In fact, last February I had a Life Group running around 20 people. Our ideal group is around 10-12, so I wanted to branch the group. The leaders of that group came at me hard against it. The long and short of it was that they were 1) building their Kingdom and 2) they wanted to continue hanging out with all of their friends more than they cared about the spiritual formation of those same friends. Those leaders no longer lead a Life Group.This isn't an age thing or to say anything about aging churches, this is an effectivity thing. If a church (which is the people - not the organization) has decided that they are happy meeting with the same 7 people every week and don't really care that there is a lost world around them, then close it!! The same could be said about a church of 300...though that church is much more difficult to close. |
| Author: | acts [ Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Quiet Wyatt: |
| Having had quite a bit of experience with small, declining or plateaued churches (which make up something like 80% of churches in the USA today), I can say that never once have I sensed from those involved in such churches that they were happy with things staying the way they were. Mostly, they were indeed quite concerned about the future of their church, and didn't know how to turn it around or they definitely would have! |
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