I think someone just got user names mixed up, i.e., I think someone mixed up Eddie with mytimewillcome. I’d say that in itself warrants an apology.
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I think someone just got user names mixed up, i.e., I think someone mixed up Eddie with mytimewillcome. I’d say that in itself warrants an apology.
I like that answer.
[…] General Assembly Agenda 2012: Item 15 WOMEN in MINISTRY […]
[…] 75th Church of God International General Assembly: Historic Encounters, Hints of What Lies Ahead […]
We must remember that when we go into God’s Word, we must not go in with an agenda and try to make it fit our wants. We must adapt to what the Bible says, not make the Bible adapt to our ways or times. The concept from the beginning has been that the man has the authority. Adam was given Eve as his helper. Paul refers to this concept when he refers to the order of creation in his epistle to Timothy.
1 Tim. 2:12-14 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
There is an obvious authority structure set up by God. The woman is not to have authority over the man in the church. This is not speaking of the political and economical world, as we see that even Deborah was a judge in Israel over men. This is about the church. Women supported Paul in many areas and have been and are great helpers in the church. In fact, some of the best leaders, singers, musicians, teachers, etc. are women. No one is denying that. Paul is talking about the relationship between men and women in the church structure, not a social or political context. Look at the bishop/overseer in Paul’s teachings. He is to be a husband of one wife, who manages his household well, has a good reputation, etc. Notice in Titus 1:5-7 what Paul says.
Titus 1:5-7 For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you— 6 if a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination. 7 For a bishop must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money,
Paul interchanges the word elder and overseer. Each case shows that an elder, deacon, bishop, or overseer is instructed to be male. We see no command for overseers to be women. Men are obviously singled out. Why? Because it’s the created order of God that Paul references. We see countless mentions of priests in the Old Testament and every one was male. No once do we see a female priest. It just isn’t the job for women.
All throughout scripture we are shown an order and a balance. Being a pastor or an elder is to be in the place of authority and within the church, for a woman to be a pastor or elder, she would be in authority of men in the church which contradicts what Paul says in 1 Timothy 2:11-14. God’s Word clearly tells us that the elder is to be the husband of one wife and a woman cannot qualify for this position since she is female. It’s not the popular stance today, but it’s the Biblical stance. It has nothing to do with women being less than men, believe me. I’ve seen more women in ministry positions make a bigger impact then men. If anything, men need to step it up, but I digress. Women are equal to men, and vice versa, but when it comes to authority in the church, the template and standard has been given us in scripture and as true Christians, we are to adhere and align our beliefs and practices to God’s Word and the concept of women pastors just doesn’t jive.
As far as Kari Jobe, I think she’s an incredible singer and worship leader and I have no doubt that she could speak and lead, but as far as being a pastor (Is she even a Pastor?) it would go against the Bible and would be wrong. God bless.
Awesome response. It does say women can be prophetesses. But no authority over a man that is the order God has ordained. He created women as a help mate.
@Stan Wayne i was on Kari Jobe’s side in this conversation. I was just asking for discussion.
Fantastic – Pentecostals tend to see 1 C 14 through the lens of Acts 2 (daughters, handmaidens) and 1 COR 11 prophesying women and Philips daughters prophetesses and Junia apostle etc. I actually think guneo usually means Wife rather than Woman and that these ladies were in the childcare section asking questions in a disruptive way
And that why i asked “what does usurp mean”. Personally i have alway believe that it just means that a woman must always have a man as a covering. As in i dont believe women should be bishops and overseers. That they should ty to take authority in the church but can certainly exercise it when its given in the proper way.
Well – I am not Church of God ( episcopalian) so I see 1 Peter 5, Acts 20 etc saying bishops and elders are the same person. Usurp seems to imply if husband is happy wife can teach
I believe the order of leadership for the church is clearly set out in scripture and that is to be a male is to have authority over a church. This is not a sexist thing, it’s the order set forth. Now, I believe women can be leaders in the church and even teachers in the church, but the main authoritative figure in the church should be a man based on the model and order given us all throughout scripture. God bless!
What is the place of women in ministry and the Church? Woman was created NOT from the skull of man that she might be (rule) over him, nor from his foot that she might be beneath him (as a servant or slave), but she was created from a rib taken from Adam’s side that she might walk, work and worship beside him as an equal partner and co-laborer. When woman (Eve) walked separate from the man (Adam) she encountered the serpent alone and was beguiled and introduced sin into the world. The guilt is not her own for the man (Adam) allowed her to separate herself from his side and walk alone and vulnerable. The result of this separation from one another is that man must now serve as an authority (protecting covering) to woman and for woman to su bmit to this God established authority of man. Even though Paul declares (by the Holy Spirit) in his writings that we are all one in Christ Jesus and that in Christ there is neither male nor female (Galatians 3:28), God still has an order that He has set in place (1 Corinthians 11:1-3) and if His good and perfect will is to be done (on earth as it is in heaven) we must acknowledge, obey and walk in the way that He has set before us until He comes and establishes His kingdom on earth. His will be a new kingdom (to man) on earth that will be as His kingdom in heaven. This new kingdom will have new rules (His). ONLY then will things be different than they are for both man and woman.
Manmade religions, denominations, movements and churches may make all of the rules, declarations and bylaws they want in an attempt to change things according to their own desire, but that does not change the order which God Himself has established for man and women for as long as we live on this earth in its present state. What this means for ministry and the church is that men and women may serve together in ministry, side by side, but at NO time may a woman rise to a place of spiritual authority over a man. 1 Corinthians 11:5 says that a woman should not even pray without having a covering. To do so brings dishonor to her “head” (covering authority). In other words, together as equals, women and men ministers may discuss reason and debate and make decisions concerning the polity and doctrine of the church. But women may not rise to a position of authority over men in God’s church. This may not be convenient or pleasant for some but THIS IS the will of God as revealed in His Holy Word. Times change, opinions change, cultures change, but the Word of God remains unchanged as the only standard of truth and written revelation of His will for us.