Got you, that makes sense.I think another challenge is that bad leadership isn’t necessarily a sin. Matthew 18is designed to facilitate the confrontation of sin in the church. Your state’s situation may involve that — I have no idea which state you’re talking about (and don’t want to know) — and if so, Matthew 18should be used for that portion.But being bad at a job isn’t necessarily a sin. In most cases it probably isn’t. So does Matthew 18give you anything there? Can the model still be used? A one on one confrontation, followed by a joint confrontation, followed by a public confrontation? Maybe it does.
One on one may be the way it should be, but in the present world it must be a group. Whether in a corporate world or in church hierarchy where men are promoted to their highest level of incompetence and cannot face it. Many years ago we had leaders who took overseers jobs and realized they were over their heads and gave it up. Some stuck it out and did a poor job ashamed to admit they were great as a pastor, but blown away in administration.Even the group has a big down side, you may be accused of conspiracy. I think a good thing in any state would be an official survey strictly anonymous. Incompetence may not be a sin, but trying to cover it up, could be hurting your brothers________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
I have no idea how performance is measured in the COG at the Administrative level, or if it even is formally measured.In the corporate world we used a very detailed system of goal setting and mid-year and end of year appraisals. If you met or exceeded your agreed upon goals, all was good. If not, be prepared to be placed in a performance improvement plan, from which very few ever escaped.Later, we adopted the Jack Welch “rank and yank†method that essentially removed non performers from the corporate gene pool. Ruthless, but very effective.My point being that if there is no formal performance review system in place, poor performance is overlooked or ignored. Or even worse, poor performers are shuffled along to another state or position for someone else to deal with.It seems to me that if there are AB’s performing in the manner described in some recent threads, there is little accountability. And that is a major flaw in the system. IMO of course________________“Hell will be filled with people that didn’t cuss, didn’t drink, and may even have been baptized. Why? Because none of those things makes someone a Christian.”
There isn’t any accountability at all. Being in the position usually gets you a promotion.I heard we had an evaluation years back and the guy said Your organization is big and healthy but one thing is gonna kill it. They asked what that was and he said Your good ol’ boy system. They thanked him for the evaluation and sent him on his way.
Is there some way for several pastors who have experienced this come together to report to COGHQ? (Thinking there is strength in numbers…________________More of Him…less of me.twitter.com/camiracle77www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=691241499&ref=name
Centralized government, ya gotta love it.Cleveland will not tolerate anything or anyone what rocks the boat.Ask Joe Chambers________________Charles A. HutchinsSenior Pastor SPWCCongregational Church of Godwww.spwc.church
Do you ever wonder if an AB just has a plan and no amount of talking will change that plan? Could the desire to get a good preference vote be so important that he removes anyone he fears will not vote for him? He knows he has unlimited power when it comes to his state. Some men knows how to use that power for political advancement, while others use it for Kingdom advancement. It is all about the true heart of the man. I’ve been around long enough to see both.
What exactly are the issues that you are trying to bring up? Knowing What is the problem will help know how to handle________________Hate to say it, but its trueNew Orleans Bred, Mississippi Led, Hopefully Arizona will be home before I’m dead.
Don’t like the word criticism. As a pastor many times I have been disagreed with. That is fine as long as you talk to me face to face. Criticism is normally done behind someone’s back. Differences of opinions is not criticism. We should be big enough to handle differences appropriately________________
The Bible speaks of direct confrontation. Consider Paul and Peter: 11 But when Peter came to Antioch, I had to oppose him to his face, for what he did was very wrong. Gal. 2I really don’t like it if any would refuse to do this for fear of reprisal. That very well may happen, but the deeper truth is that it is a lack of trust in God for our well being. Fear of man is lack of faith in God. You might get fired, but God is still God. We must do everything in full trust to God and obedience to His word and never in our fear of what man can do. Bad things can happen, but I would rather suffer them in the here and now then to disobey and not trust God. God supplies my needs and of my family. Yes there are many ecclesiastical bullies in many positions. We might get on the receiving end of their power trips and ego. That should never stop a man from following God’s word though.Thomas Campbell was a Pastor in London at the time of Spurgeon. Leonard Ravenhill quoted him in why revival tarries and Keith Green wrote a song based on his quote. I believe it applies to whenever you make a stand to obey the bible .If a man is going to preach revival, he had better pledge his head to heaven first.If we are going to obey the bible, we better do the same________________
I was just studying Jethro’s advice to Moses today in Ex. 18. Moses was quite the leader and he listened. God taught Moses by someone from the outside. It is hard to find that today. May we all be open and never be a bully to the ones we are suppose to lead and to serve________________
Matthew 18
That’s what I’m saying. Matthew 18
Got you, that makes sense.I think another challenge is that bad leadership isn’t necessarily a sin. Matthew 18is designed to facilitate the confrontation of sin in the church. Your state’s situation may involve that — I have no idea which state you’re talking about (and don’t want to know) — and if so, Matthew 18should be used for that portion.But being bad at a job isn’t necessarily a sin. In most cases it probably isn’t. So does Matthew 18give you anything there? Can the model still be used? A one on one confrontation, followed by a joint confrontation, followed by a public confrontation? Maybe it does.
One on one may be the way it should be, but in the present world it must be a group. Whether in a corporate world or in church hierarchy where men are promoted to their highest level of incompetence and cannot face it. Many years ago we had leaders who took overseers jobs and realized they were over their heads and gave it up. Some stuck it out and did a poor job ashamed to admit they were great as a pastor, but blown away in administration.Even the group has a big down side, you may be accused of conspiracy. I think a good thing in any state would be an official survey strictly anonymous. Incompetence may not be a sin, but trying to cover it up, could be hurting your brothers________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
I have no idea how performance is measured in the COG at the Administrative level, or if it even is formally measured.In the corporate world we used a very detailed system of goal setting and mid-year and end of year appraisals. If you met or exceeded your agreed upon goals, all was good. If not, be prepared to be placed in a performance improvement plan, from which very few ever escaped.Later, we adopted the Jack Welch “rank and yank†method that essentially removed non performers from the corporate gene pool. Ruthless, but very effective.My point being that if there is no formal performance review system in place, poor performance is overlooked or ignored. Or even worse, poor performers are shuffled along to another state or position for someone else to deal with.It seems to me that if there are AB’s performing in the manner described in some recent threads, there is little accountability. And that is a major flaw in the system. IMO of course________________“Hell will be filled with people that didn’t cuss, didn’t drink, and may even have been baptized. Why? Because none of those things makes someone a Christian.”
There isn’t any accountability at all. Being in the position usually gets you a promotion.I heard we had an evaluation years back and the guy said Your organization is big and healthy but one thing is gonna kill it. They asked what that was and he said Your good ol’ boy system. They thanked him for the evaluation and sent him on his way.
Is there some way for several pastors who have experienced this come together to report to COGHQ? (Thinking there is strength in numbers…________________More of Him…less of me.twitter.com/camiracle77www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=691241499&ref=name
Centralized government, ya gotta love it.Cleveland will not tolerate anything or anyone what rocks the boat.Ask Joe Chambers________________Charles A. HutchinsSenior Pastor SPWCCongregational Church of Godwww.spwc.church
Criticism really only has weight…
When the hearer really respects and values the opinions of the one doing the criticism________________
Do you ever wonder if an AB just has a plan and no amount of talking will change that plan? Could the desire to get a good preference vote be so important that he removes anyone he fears will not vote for him? He knows he has unlimited power when it comes to his state. Some men knows how to use that power for political advancement, while others use it for Kingdom advancement. It is all about the true heart of the man. I’ve been around long enough to see both.
What exactly are the issues that you are trying to bring up? Knowing What is the problem will help know how to handle________________Hate to say it, but its trueNew Orleans Bred, Mississippi Led, Hopefully Arizona will be home before I’m dead.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely.________________More of Him…less of me.twitter.com/camiracle77www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=691241499&ref=name
Don’t like the word criticism. As a pastor many times I have been disagreed with. That is fine as long as you talk to me face to face. Criticism is normally done behind someone’s back. Differences of opinions is not criticism. We should be big enough to handle differences appropriately________________
The Bible speaks of direct confrontation. Consider Paul and Peter: 11 But when Peter came to Antioch, I had to oppose him to his face, for what he did was very wrong. Gal. 2I really don’t like it if any would refuse to do this for fear of reprisal. That very well may happen, but the deeper truth is that it is a lack of trust in God for our well being. Fear of man is lack of faith in God. You might get fired, but God is still God. We must do everything in full trust to God and obedience to His word and never in our fear of what man can do. Bad things can happen, but I would rather suffer them in the here and now then to disobey and not trust God. God supplies my needs and of my family. Yes there are many ecclesiastical bullies in many positions. We might get on the receiving end of their power trips and ego. That should never stop a man from following God’s word though.Thomas Campbell was a Pastor in London at the time of Spurgeon. Leonard Ravenhill quoted him in why revival tarries and Keith Green wrote a song based on his quote. I believe it applies to whenever you make a stand to obey the bible .If a man is going to preach revival, he had better pledge his head to heaven first.If we are going to obey the bible, we better do the same________________
I was just studying Jethro’s advice to Moses today in Ex. 18. Moses was quite the leader and he listened. God taught Moses by someone from the outside. It is hard to find that today. May we all be open and never be a bully to the ones we are suppose to lead and to serve________________