Preamble: In most countries surveyed, renewalists have at least as much schooling as the general population; in fact, in Nigeria, pentecostals are much more likely than the public as a whole to have obtained at least some post-secondary education. In the U.S., however, renewalists, especially pentecostals, tend to be less educated than the population as a whole; though there is virtually no education gap when it comes to charismatics.
This item closely resembles Resolution 9 adopted by Assemblies of God in 2007 as it seeks to:
- Encourage continuing education
- Use adequately accredited institutions
- Refraining from attributing any non-accredited degrees
Historical Presuppositions for making this item prominent are found in the rise of online Christian education and unsubstantial theological degrees. There are currently several ongoing investigations on Christian programs in the United Kingdom alone, which offered advanced theological degrees on graduate and post-graduate level without meeting the necessary accreditation and legal requirements (see BBC vs Edinburgh University, University of Wales and the Education Funding Council for England). Furthermore, there have been:
- Growing proliferation of unaccredited independent organizations and fraudulent diploma mills
- Independent Pentecostal/charismatic movements are increasingly permeated by dubious educational entities and deficient degrees
- The highest standards in training and educational accreditation for ministers must provide a solid evangelical, Pentecostal education firmly embedded in orthodox Christianity
- Graduate programs are acquiring accreditation by the Council for Accreditation of Counseling and Related Educational Programs (CACREP) in order to ensure a smooth transition towards licensure or certification
- Alteranative ministry training courses are now being offered near Chattanooga and Cleveland
1992 CHURCH of GOD RESOLUTION on MINISTERIAL DEVELOPMENT AND EDUCATION
WHEREAS a new light of freedom and opportunity for evangeliza- tion shines across the world today; and
WHEREAS a new cry for trained, spiritual leadership is being heard throughout the world because of church growth and evangelism in new fields of labor; and
WHEREAS God is raising up a mighty army of new warriors and champions who are entering ministry in record numbers;
THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the Church of God support, promote, and encourage the accessibility of ministerial training and development throughout the world (64th A., 1992, p.78).
The next time you decide to whine and cry about how sad it is that Church of God ministers won’t interact with you, please remember that it is because you are unable to or simply refuse to offer simple answers to simple questions. Your teaching is not some challenging mystery. It is a hot mess, and it’s not worth speaking to you because you won’t engage in intelligent discussion.
For one dave, I’m not the judge, that’s why I’m not answering it the way you want me to answer it I can’t say who’s going to make and who’s not. What I can say is what the Bible says about the issue not me I didn’t read the BibleIf I said no one can make it to heaven if they don’t keep the Law / G-d’s Instructions you would bring up the thief on the cross LOL LOL,. Yes he obviously made mistakes in his life to find himself on a cross to die, but he made it right at the end, who knows when the end is coming for them________________Ps 122:6
Explain to me Matthew chapter 7 21 to 23, maybe I’m just reading it wrong 😶Shalo________________Ps 122:6
Done. Let the record show you WOULD NOT answer.
Lol, I did answer it, you don’t have ears to hear. I’m not going to give you my two cents on an issue dave, I’m going to give you scripture so there’s no mistak________________Ps 122:6
Did you call me a coward dave? Lol, isn’t that attacking me, aren’t you breaking your own laws ðŸ¤________________Ps 122:6
I honestly miss the fellowship I once felt with those services and the follow-up meal together at the local DQ or whatever. I know small groups are supposed to do the same thing, but meh ….
Ask them for a pay raise, or ask them who is going to be leading it..________________———My Facebook http://www.facebook.com/theB3
I think everyone here understands your dilemma. At my age I would never vote to bring it back especially if it has been THAT long since a Sunday nite service. Very few churches have a strong Sunday night service. Our home church that runs around 100 in worship must push to have 12-18 there on Sunday night. I know our (just retired) pastor wanted to drop it but was afraid of the fall out. Tough decision my friend.Sometimes us old folk can be very stubborn. ________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
I’ve seen enough of your posts on this forum to know you are a very thoughtful, considerate person. I suspect you have forgotten considerably more about ministry than I know. I also know you’ve posted about your two service dynamic in the past and I know you’ve thought a lot about it. I don’t suspect I’ll tell you anything you haven’t already considered. But with those caveats said…1) You don’t have two services, you have two churches. If there is both a defined style and generation gap between the two congregations, it’s two bodies and not one. 2) Your middle-aged folks and seniors are sinning against your contemporary congregation. In my very young years (20s) I would have been happy to have the seniors sequestered. In my less young years (30s) I have, by God’s grace, come to recognize the paramount importance of older saints living among, leading, and imaging a mature faith to the younger.3) It’s reasonable to ask the seniors to endure some more contemporary songs for the sake of the younger generations, but for the most part, I think the younger generation should be exposed to the more traditional songs that the older folks prefer. These are, for the most part, songs that have withstood the test of time because of their theological depth. It is very nice (in my opinion) to hear and sing traditional lyrics in a more contemporary style, but I would rather sing theologically rich lyrics to an organ and choir than theologically shallow lyrics accompanied by a contemporary style. A potential compromise could be to have the older generation’s songs performed, at times, in a more contemporary style. 4) The main problem isn’t that the old folks won’t accept the younger style, it’s that the young folks won’t accept the older style. Therefore, the main problem will not go away when the old folks die. Their needs and their style will die with them, but the same problem will exist in the younger service — a congregation that to some degree perfers contemporary music over theological depth, and doesn’t have the example of older saints. That’s the most significant problem, in my opinion, that has to be fixed when a church is divided like this one. The problem is with the young folks (point #2 aside), not the old folks, so it won’t go away when they die, it will just be even harder to fix because a potential corrective influence will be gone.5) Until this division is addressed and resolved, it’s not even worth thinking about a Sunday night service.
Small groups aren’t supposed to do what Sunday nights did. They are not church on a smaller scale. Small groups are about community and support. They are about discipleship and growth. Real growth doesn’t happen in pews so much as in circles, as I’ve heard it said________________The World As I See Itworldjeffreysees.blogspot.com/Revuriah’s Facebookwww.facebook.com/people/Jeff-Richard/1226257444Jeffrey David Richard’s Myspace Musicwww.myspace.com/547856946
Some pretty good thoughts, right there!
I believe I can speak to this situation, since I had a very similar experience. In 2007, I was appointed to a divided congregation. We only had one service, at 10:30 AM, and tired to mix traditional music with contemporary.Not long after I came, members of the church and pastor’s council began to lobby for a return to Sunday night services. The proponents of this move assured me that everyone wanted to have evening services, so I agreed. Big mistake. Only about 25-30% of the people came back for evening service. Musicians wouldn’t come back. Sound people wouldn’t come back. Praise Team members wouldn’t come back. I never knew who, or what I was going to have, in order to execute the worship service. Interestingly, some of the loudest proponents, were the most lax in their attendance.I think resuming Sunday night is a mistake, based on my direct experience.If you are lucky, 30% of your congregation will come back. With that number in mind, consider:1. The church will have to run power, water, heat/air, etc.2. The church will have to be staffed (music, sound, nursery, ushers)3. You will have to prepare another sermon4. What will that evening service accomplish?To me….I said to ME…..Its likely that those who attend Sunday pm service are already saved. They are probably well established Christians. They probably went to the morning service. That is a lot of effort, just to preach to the choir. I’ve heard every reason in the book, to have Sunday night and none of them hold water:We might get some visitors (Not likely on Sunday night)We might get some people, whose churches don’t have Sunday PM (Uh…No, those folks are on the lake)Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy (Really? What’d you do from 130)Look, I know anything is possible. But clearly you don’t feel good about resuming pm service. My suggestion? Make Sunday night a prayer service. No singing. No devotion. Just prayer. After a month, see what the evening attendance is________________
Resume Sunday nights for prayer only. Have prayer requests typed up and available at the door. Have people come and pray from 6-7pm. Do this for 8 weeks. Track the attendance – which will be pitiful (30+ years as a pastor talking).Go back to your leaders and tell them if we can’t get more than ___ to come out to pray, then why should we be offering a full worship service. Remember, if we have a full service, we will need musicians, singers, ushers, sound guy, nursery workers, and other volunteers. It will take at least 15-20 volunteers for a full service and we only had an average of ___ for prayer meetings.
Our church is now 10 years old and in all that time, we have had a Sunday night service. I was advised by a CoG official to do away with our Sunday night services and I responded that my congregation would kill me. Our Sunday night services have an average attendance of 100 and we have had numerous people thank us for continuing them. We have had many visitors, visit for the first time on Sunday nights and decide to come back. I know most congregations have 2 morning services and combine their numbers but, I have never done this(maybe, I should). We continue these services because people still attend them.
I appreciate all the feedback here. Most of you echo the thoughts I already have/feel about the subject. Time and experience tell me that this service will not be well-attended, regardless of this recent surge of interest. As much as I hate to say it, the problem lies with the people my age. The youth are more than willing to combine, but the traditionalists don’t want electric guitars, drums, and keyboards. They want their organ, piano, full choir, and nothing but the old hymns. As you might imagine, most of the financial support for the church comes from the older folks (just keeping it real!). I may flip things and say I will only agree if the contemporary praise band leads the worship for the evening service
If it ain’t broke, there is no need to fix it!Personally, over the past 14 years, I’ve had little success with PM services. My current church still has one, but to be honest, its not good. You can feel the lethargy in the building. I don’t think people want to be there…..but they feel like they are supposed to be there. It is as if people feel, We have to do this, or else we’ll be caving, compromising, etcI’m not against Sunday night……if it is working for you, go for it! Blessings________________
Pentecostal churches that still have a lively Sunday night service are afforded the opportunity of reciveing vistors from non-Pentecostal churches who are hungry for a deeper experience with the Lord. However, not every church can or should adopt this format________________
Pentecostal cjurches that still have a lively Sunday night service are afforded the opportunity of reciveing vistors from non-Pentecostal churches who are hungry for a deeper experience with the Lord. However, not every church can or should adopt this format. to be honest, most of our visitors are new or new to the area. we are having an influx of former Catholics. Our church is right of I-75 and sometimes they are truck drivers. I’m pretty sure we are beyond the point of other Pentecostals trying us out, at least I hope so. Truly our PM service is and has been working pretty well.
Surely it stinketh..________________I’m not saved because I’m good. I’m saved because He’s good!My website: http://www.bradfreeman.comMy blog: bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/
I’m not saying that Sunday Night Services will work in all areas. I have pastored in areas where I wished we could do away with them and we should have done away with them. I have pastored in places that didn’t have them when I got there, several people asked that they be brought back, they worked for a while and we ended up doing away with them again.But where I pastor now, they did not have Sunday Night Services when I got here. I had a few people ask about them and I was, honestly, very reluctant to start them back. But we tried. The first two or three months were tough. Very few people. I advised the church that we were going to try them one more month (we were only doing them one night a month). That lit a fire.We are not a large church. Right now on Sunday Mornings we average between 40 and 50. But our Sunday Nights are well attended now and are very powerful. In fact, two weeks ago we had 43 on Sunday Morning, 45 on Sunday Night, and 47 on Wednesday Night. Earlier I read a post that said you wouldn’t likely get visitors on Sunday Nights. That may be the case in some places. However, we have seen many first time guests on Sunday Nights and many have continued coming to the church for Sunday Mornings. Some only come on Sunday Nights, when their home churches aren’t having service. We don’t try to steal them away but just welcome them as we would anybody.We are currently doing Sunday Night service on the 2nd and 4th Sundays of the month. The 1st Sunday Night my wife leads a Lady’s Bible Study that has a pot-luck meal and study time. It is also well attended. We take the 3rd Sunday Night and 5th Sunday Night off.
That’s awesome! Isn’t it interesting how experiences differ________________
I hate to say this Mr. Shiek, but it sounds to me like you’ve got a power struggle brewing in your church. I see no benefit to giving in to those that want yet another service all their own. I would press your deacons and elders to give a detailed answer of just why they feel so strongly about this Sunday night service. Are their motives selfish(as they appear to be), or are they sincerely desiring another opportunity to assemble for corporate worship? Similarly, I’ve always wondered why our churches feel the need to have so many services each week. Is having more church services always better, or should we be striving to make fewer services more impactful to both our church and our communities________________“Hell will be filled with people that didn’t cuss, didn’t drink, and may even have been baptized. Why? Because none of those things makes someone a Christian.”
In my early Lifetime 1940-1950’s many services were very important. As a rule we had Sun morn, sun afternoon (jail and/or old folks homes), Sunday night, Wed. Nite, Sat. Nite services. It was important because we were sort of isolated. COG (Pentecostals) needed the fellowship and ‘craved it’. Add to those listed the District fellowship meetings and District youth meetings and WE WERE a busy church family. WE were a family. That is because the members craved fellowship with like minded people. We were considered a ‘cult’ by the ‘nominal’ churches. As a matter of fact we were practically taught that the ‘nominal bunch’ were mostly ‘hell-bound’..That is not the present situation. Most of us feel comfortable with Baptist, Methodist and Presbyterian friends. They might not agree with us but they accept us as Christians as a general rule. THEREFORE we do not feel the NEED of the family fellowship. We are comfortable with our friends who are Christian. JMHO ________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
Thanks for sharing.I think Bryan and Perry are doing a good thing here.Godspeed to them________________
The article reads that Stone’s School is designed to give people a very solid biblical education—Old and New Testament—along with Bible prophecy, ministerial studies and biblical expository studies. I would take this to mean that Stone no longer espouses the belief that Exodus 32:32teaches that Moses spoke…
Never mind________________More of Him…less of me.twitter.com/camiracle77www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=691241499&ref=name
C’mon man. Give it a rest.Do you have a link to this sermon that you quote so often – so we can hear what Perry really said________________
Or that all three Gods were there in creation. Was sitting on the front row of that service when he said it________________
I thought the article was interesting. I don’t follow Perry Stone enough to have an informed opinion about his ministry, other than he is reaching a lot of people that are not being reached by other institutions.There is a paradox, a degree from an Ivy League school is esteemed by many in Pentecostal circles, despite the Godless nature of most of those institutions.Yet, a Pentecostal minister (who I think is credentialed by the same denomination as many on this board) develops a school with the stated goal of teaching the Bible to as many as possible, and he is depicted as a heretic. Should he separate from the naysayers for the sake of his vision?
It’s been reported that Perry is no longer associated with the COG, but the following is on his website re: About Perry which states he is. I don’t think he really cares what other people think now. He is going to follow what he feels God is leading him to do, regardless. We visited OCI & attended some services last year when we went to Pigeon Forge (and later Cleveland.) The facilities are impressive, as well as the host of volunteers who make the events happen.About PerryBible teacher Perry Stone’s Ministry continues to expand around the world while hitting a public nerve with insight into biblical prophecy.Perry Stone is a study in contrasts. He has limited formal education for someone sought after as a Bible expert, yet he’s written more than 40 books. A Southerner, he’s popular in the Northeast. He bases his ministry in a small Tennessee town, yet he impacts the world through television. He is a fourth-generation Pentecostal preacher whose largest group of followers are Baptists—and Roman Catholics are in the top four.Best known as a teacher of end-times Bible prophecy, his biggest pleasure is poring over the Scriptures—he claims to have put in 60,000 hours of study. Before he retires, he wants to finish a copious study Bible (he was working on it before our interview began). But he also has a vision to build a youth camp that would look like a city in Old Testament Israel.Stone also defies nearly every stereotype leveled at Pentecostals. Affiliated with the Church of God (Cleveland, Tenn.), he can preach like a Pentecostal but usually teaches in a more academic style. He’s on thousands of TV stations, yet he never asks for money—he says God told him not to. Instead the Lord instructed him: “Trust Me.â€Rather than asking for donations he sells products on his program. He sold hundreds of thousands of books through his ministry for several decades, but never through bookstores.As one of America’s foremost experts on biblical prophecy, Stone often is invited as the keynote speaker at internationally attended prophecy conferences. But don’t expect him to agree with those who dub his prophetic teaching “end-times theology.â€â€œI just call it New Testament theology,†he says. “It’s basically three main points. No. 1: There comes a time of end; not the end of time, but a time of the end. Our basic theology is to understand there is a time of the end and an end generation. No. 2: There are specific signs [in the Bible] indicating when that generation is come. No. 3 is to preach those signs to encourage people to come to know Jesus Christ. Those are the three simple ways that I look at what I do.â€Stone has also produced videos and DVDs, hundreds of audio teaching series, and films a weekly television program, Manna-Fest, that’s seen nationally and internationally via cable and satellite on TBN, Daystar, INSP, LeSea and other networks.So how has a self-made Bible scholar been able to build one of the biggest ministries of its type in the world? “Prayer,†he says.It was while in prayer at age 18 that Stone says God gave him the name of his ministry, Voice of Evangelism, and his television program. His vision was considered a joke at the time because he wasn’t the voice of anything back then; he had no ministry. When he told friends about his dream, they made fun of him.About the same time, again in prayer, God revealed several thrusts his ministry would have: a magazine, radio and TV, crusades and camp meetings, and world-missions outreaches. All have come to pass.“When we write a book, title a message, prepare a conference message, it always comes through a lot of prayer, a lot of praying in the Spirit,†says Stone. “The Spirit of God will quicken your spirit and your intellect to truths that have always been there but maybe are not commonly taught because the Bible even says that ‘the anointing that abides teaches you all things.’â€His friend Marcus Lamb, who founded Daystar Television Network and has known Stone since they were both “teen preachers†in the Church of God, says he could see in Stone even as a teenager the seeds of what has since made his ministry skyrocket.“Perry was very sincere; he was committed even as a teen to fasting and prayer,†Lamb says. “He was eager to learn, and compared to his peers he had a big vision. He also believed in the power of the Holy Spirit with signs and wonders.â€It’s the emphasis on prayer, Stone stresses, that has led to the ministry’s growth. He prays about everything. And he gets answers—for titles of books, for what projects to undertake, for how to expand. Many times he simply prays in the Holy Spirit to get the answer he needs.“I believe strongly in education,†he adds. “But I also believe it has to be mixed with an intent praying in the Spirit in intensive prayer to really receive the revelation God would have a person to speak or preach.â€He picked up the prayer habit from his father, Fred Stone, who greatly influenced his life and died at age 78.“My father was the greatest praying man I ever met,†Stone says. “He taught me the significance of understanding the mysteries of God is to pray in the Spirit and get the mind of the Spirit.â€Fred Stone is buried in a small private cemetery dating back to Civil War days, only a few hundred yards from Stone’s 70,000-square-foot ministry headquarters. The modern facilities are on the edge of picturesque Cleveland, Tenn.—a town of roughly 40,000 that is headquarters for the Church of God.Cleveland is also home to the Church of God of Prophecy (and several other small denominations), as well as Lee University, which, with more than 4,000 full-time students, is the largest Pentecostal university in North America. Stone likes being rooted in Cleveland, he says, because there have been prophecies that it would have a place in the end-times revival.Because he bases his ministry in a remote location he maintains a ministry plane—a necessity, rather than a luxury, of travelling constantly. Yet he drives a secondhand car—bought at a good price, he adds, using money from a book advance—and his ministry salary, while confidential, isn’t the income of a CEO but more like that of his ministry department heads.All of this is not show; it’s just how he lives. For example, before he and his wife, Pam, married, they had only one date—at Western Sizzlin Steakhouse in Birmingham, Ala. Instead, they courted by phone. After he got a phone bill for $500 one month, Stone told Pam it would be cheaper to marry her than to spend so much on telephone calls! Today the couple has a son, Jonathan, and daughter, Amanda.Stone credits much of his model for ministry to T.L. Lowery, an “apostolic statesman†within the Church of God who served in a variety of offices for the denomination and pastored some of its largest churches.Their relationship was forged during a camp meeting in Alabama years ago where Lowery was the featured preacher. While Stone watched and listened from the edge of the stage, Lowery prayed for a dignified, well-dressed woman to be delivered of a demon. The demon visibly manifested when it “shot out of the woman’s mouth like a comet to the back of the tabernacle†before fleeing, Lowery says. When people saw that, revival broke out in the service as they ran to the altar to repent while the freed woman praised God onstage.As they left the service, Lowery and Stone picked up each other’s suit coats, which they had shed during the intense ministry. Stone has joked for years since that he should never have given back Lowery’s coat because he wanted the mantle of that powerful anointing.It’s this type of Pentecostal fervor for which Stone is respected in the Church of God but also viewed as controversial by others. “Perry has always been a guy who follows his own path,†says Cameron Fisher, communications coordinator for the Church of God. “He fits into the Judy Jacobs and Jentezen Franklin category. They have their own well-known ministries that appeal to audiences within and outside the Church of God, but they maintain their Church of God connection for accountability.â€Not everyone shares this opinion, however. Like in many other upwardly mobile Pentecostal denominations, there are those in the Church of God who want to shed the image of Pentecostals as uneducated folk who enjoy emotional services—and they view Stone that way. Yet, in the same way other Pentecostal stereotypes don’t apply to Stone, the uneducated, “backwoods†image doesn’t stick to him either.“I don’t say this boasting, by any means, but I have about 60,000 hours of Bible study and over 20,000 books in my library,†he says. “I study every possible theological theory to ensure that what I believe can be proven; that I can prove what I’m teaching people. I’m not the kind of person who only studies what I believe to enforce what I believe. If you’re going to defend your faith, you have to know what others believe.â���________________More of Him…less of me.twitter.com/camiracle77www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=691241499&ref=name
Thanks Carolyn.Stone’s a good guy…and I hope this ministry is successful. Teaching folks around the globe about the Bible and Ministry….who could oppose that?Perhaps he has misspoke sometimes. I do it often.He comes to Jacksonville regularly now…and I am happy to hear him. I heard nothing contrary to the Bible while he was here last week.All you nattering nabobs of negativism need to keep that contained in Pikeville – where the 3 of you can meet at one booth at Waffle House and eat some greasy slop together. ________________
Watch it son!I ate at Waffle House last night. ________________Charles A. HutchinsSenior Pastor SPWCCongregational Church of Godwww.spwc.church
Never heard him speak in person since he probably rarely crosses west of the Rockies.Seems he has quite a following.I listened to him say a few things on TV once while he was in Jerusalem but I came into the lesson about mid-stream & it didn’t catch my attention.We have a friend in common by the name of Richard Woodruff & his lovely wife Molly. I haven’t seen Richard in years but he has always said good things about Bro. Stone. ________________Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!Email me at: [email protected] planters are focused on just one thing …introducing people to Jesus!
ashes to ashes and dust to dust
Re: ashes to ashes and dust to dust
One of my favorite non-scripture scriptures
One of my favorite non-scripture scriptures jk, but I think that old saying derives from the fact that so many early Christians were burnt. I too prefer traditional burial, but cremation is not prohibited so I think its fine, especially if it lessens the burden of a difficult time. The true is there is nothing traditional about the embalming methods used today. As Funeral Directors say, if you weren’t dead before embalming you will be afterwards. Traditional burial would be to wash the body, rap it in a shroud and bury it within 24 hours. Does it count if you bury the cremains in the ground? What about those people who are embalmed and placed in a mausoleum? Are they really laid to rest.By the way, cremation is not just putting the body in a furnace. The second step after the furnace is to place the ashes and bones in a processor (grinder). The family is given a box of ashes and told it is their loved one. That depends on how well they cleaned the grinder between guests. All this makes being placed in an unmarked grave without embalming sound good to me.
I have often thought if people saw death as it really is, and had to personally place their loved ones in the grave, there would be a greater understanding of the importance of the resurrection. How often do we preachers ask those who attend funerals to accept Christ as their Savior, only to see the confess of the moment last only as long as they saw the dead body. After the funeral, in most cases, they walk away from Jesus like they walk away from the grave.
I have often thought if people saw death as it really is, and had to personally place their loved ones in the grave, there would be a greater understanding of the importance of the resurrection. How often do we preachers ask those who attend funerals to accept Christ as their Savior, only to see the confess of the moment last only as long as they saw the dead body. After the funeral, in most cases, they walk away from Jesus like they walk away from the grave.Mat
There are no doubt Christians who have been eaten by wild animals…one piece with this animal, another with that one, etc…. God’s going to resurrect believers no matter what. NO. MATTER. WHAT.The problem with funerals is that they are often thrown together in moments of deep emotional concern. If your loved one dies, you are going to want to give them the best funeral you can…even if, in a quieter moment, you would not have dared spend so much money.I am for cremation, for the most part. For one thing (and this sound a bit silly, but it’s a fact), in the grave yard at Moore’s Chapel in Cleveland, TN, an every increasing number of Scotts and their kin are buried there. In fact, there is no more room beside in the part of the graveyard where they are buried. But with cremation…it’s really about as simple as a coffee can (SMILE)…and post hole diggers…in order to be buried alongside my loved ones.
One of my favorite non-scripture scriptures jk, but I think that old saying derives from the fact that so many early Christians were burnt. I too prefer traditional burial, but cremation is not prohibited so I think its fine, especially if it lessens the burden of a difficult time. Genesis 3:19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
I think of the untold numbers who were basically vaporized during the dropping of the atomic bombs on Japan. If God can resurrect them,and I firmly believe He will, cremation is not that big of a deal. The issues lie with has become normal practice in our country, that of embalming and burial. The times they are a changing however________________“Hell will be filled with people that didn’t cuss, didn’t drink, and may even have been baptized. Why? Because none of those things makes someone a Christian.”
The good Book neither condones/condemns the practice. In that light, it is a matter of personal choice. Think about it, the good Book don’t say nothin bout:Bein buried at sea.Havin ya casket bein placed in a vault.
I think it depends on the state, and I am pretty sure NC does not offer that option. I think you have to get a concrete or steel case the casket goes in here and that alone is $1500. When my aunt passed, we had set amount to work with & the funeral home claimed they helped us bear the cost. We buried her in a doeskin casket, the cheapest one made, according the them________________More of Him…less of me.twitter.com/camiracle77www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=691241499&ref=name
I’ve always teased my husband that I would come back & haunt him if he cremated me. (And no, I don’t believe in that.) But that’s my personal preference. To each, his own..________________More of Him…less of me.twitter.com/camiracle77www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=691241499&ref=name
I think it depends on the state, and I am pretty sure NC does not offer that option. I think you have to get a concrete or steel case the casket goes in here and that alone is $1500. When my aunt passed, we had set amount to work with & the funeral home claimed they helped us bear the cost. We buried her in a doeskin casket, the cheapest one made, according the them.
I think it depends on the state, and I am pretty sure NC does not offer that option. I think you have to get a concrete or steel case the casket goes in here and that alone is $1500. When my aunt passed, we had set amount to work with & the funeral home claimed they helped us bear the cost. We buried her in a doeskin casket, the cheapest one made, according the them. While the laws are different from state to state, and the funeral directors are a powerful political force (or have been). In many states the outer container the casket is put in is simply a requirement of the cemetery and there are private cemeteries that do not require it. They say it keeps the grave from sinking, but it seems that modern steel caskets by themselves could do the same thing. In some states you can get a permit to transport you deceased loved one in the back of your van,station-wagon or truck (if its covered).Many people struggle with putting their loved ones in the cold-wet ground, so they buy sealing caskets and sealing outer containers (which runs up the cost). As one embalmer told me, all they are doing is keeping the fluid inside the casket from mixing with the water outside the casket.If you’re going to go with a traditional funeral and burial, to save money, buy a non-sealing casket (wood caskets can’t be sealed in most cases) and place your loved one in a cemetery that does not require an outer container. Go simple on the marker and remember in a generation the graveside will seldom be visited. However, the good news is Jesus knows exactly where they are.Mat
Mark, I appreciate your heart in posting this, and in sharing it both with him and with us. I appreciate the compassion that is clear in your heart. And your reference to the personal messages you sent to the Christians on the other forum are germane here as well. Israel’s trespass brought salvation to the Gentiles so as to make Israel jealous. And Paul said that he magnified his ministry to the Gentiles in order that he might make his fellow Jews jealous, so that he might save some of them. That is the goal; not anger, as you have said.I’m not convinced Isa is actually a Jew; I believe he may be a very deceived Gentile. If he is a Jew, then it is the command of Scripture that I (and others) not be arrogant toward the branch that has been broken off. And if he is a Gentile, then we are commanded to live peaceably with all, so far as it depends on us, and to give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. Your words are well received, at least by me.Nonetheless, I have to take significant issue with one thing that you said. I’m really having trouble processing the claim that one man could ruin the hopes of seeing Jew and Gentile united. God has not rejected His people whom he foreknew; and while a partial hardening has come upon Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, it is in this very way that all Israel will be saved. I do not understand what this means, but the Scripture says it is so. It is clear God is not done with Israel. It is clear that just as the Gentiles now receive mercy because of Israel’s disobedience, so Israel too has now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to the Gentiles they also may receive mercy. God has consigned all to disobedience — that HE may have mercy on all.
Shalom Mark, I thanked u for this in a response & u thank you here. & If I have angered anyone here I ask for forgivenes________________Ps 122:6
Thanks Mark, for bringing this to my attention. I’m just a little confused of how you were talking about my actions and my attitude. I wasn’t upset with anybody any time ever. I just shared scripture with people in all text of the Bible. People can do what they want they can accept it or not, study it out more or whatever. I’ve reread this and I reread this & bothered, & you said I’ve flamed people here with my words. Mark, I just use the scriptures… Did I get irritated sometimes? Sure, but I prayed, re-gathered myself and came back just fine smiling not bothered because of Psalms 119:165So again, if anybody got upset if I said something out of line please forgive me________________Ps 122:6
The remark to which you allude regarding the unity of Jew and Gentile is intended to address the purpose of the posts by Isa 58:12.If his/her intent is to bring unity to Jew and Gentile, that certainly hasn’t been the case.If the intent is like some others who post, to school the others, then the post could be, might be, construed to convey an elitist who speaks in condescending, patronizing terms belittling others for their ignorance.More than one poster here on Acts come across this way.There is a time for public rebuke and to call out heretics, but there is also place for speaking the truth in love.Frankly, it gets old, however, and this is the reason I leave the board for a season only to return to find the same themes discussed over and over with the same tired, worn pet themes that are repeated over and over, and interjected in such a fashion to present unbalanced positions.Some of the rhetoric used in response to Isa 58:12smacks of the same thought espoused by Constantine which not only denounced and renounced anything remotely Jewish, but served as fodder for those who persecuted the Jews. They worry about a Judaizer influencing unsuspecting readers when their own language is close to anti-Semitic and anti-Israel.Through the years, some have taken issue on my position regarding the Law, a subject I posted in response to your question regarding my endorsement of Isa 58:12’s right to post; but as my post revealed, unlike some, I post a balanced position on the purpose and value of the Law.In the 80s I became curious and began studying the Gospels and Apostolic Writings through the lens of 1st-century Judaism. The results were amazing. Among the things I discovered is the tendency to stereotype Jews of the 1st-century through anachronistic positions and the tendency to actually, and at times deliberately misinterpret and apply Scriptures.When we recast Jesus – His life, His ways, and His words in a Greek worldview that is consistently foreign to the Semitic mindset, then problems arise. We want to make Jesus fit our cultural values to justify our lifestyles. It is the same for the Apostles as well.We concern ourselves with theology but Jesus nor the Apostles were theologians. Their mind wasn’t set on proving and explaining God but declaring this is what God said and this is how we can conform to those things that please Him. I am sure many will take me to task for the following, but the Apostolic Writings were commentary on the Teachings of Jesus. They weren’t innovative – such would undermine the Cause of Christ.We argue over a host of thoughts and doctrine but fail to see the Lie that has permeated both pulpit and pew – HUMANISM, and the other isms’ it has spawned. We’ve allowed our churches to reflect 5 of the 7 churches of Revelations 2 & 3. We are proud of our doctrinal discussions and determinations but have lost our first passion, our first love.We’ve allowed paganism to dictate our worship and morals.We’ve created an appearance of being alive with our programs and multi-campus facilities, and yet we are inwardly dead – even though we have churches that are full.We’ve deceived ourselves into thinking we’re doing great, in need of nothing, but the things we once prayed through for, labored for, we now can purchase without prayer, build our cathedrals without prayer, plan our programs without prayer, and we are really wretched, blind, and naked.It is easy to label others who may appear to disagree, to belittle. Years past I was banned because some didn’t appreciate sarcasm and/or satire.If I ever post again, be assured I will have every i dotted and t crossed. It’s been real! But it is no longer fun________________God-HonoringChrist-CenteredBible-BasedSpirit-Led
Mark – I wish you wouldn’t leave us. One of the voices of truth and reason left. Your comments are balanced and give us a clearer understanding of things relating to Judaism.But I understand the not fun part, too. *sigh* Be blessed…and do come back sometime, please________________More of Him…less of me.twitter.com/camiracle77www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=691241499&ref=name
Shalom Aaron, I believe from the Bible that when someone repents of sins & believes in Y’shua for forgiveness of those sins/breaking G-ds Commandments they/we & r grafted into Y’sreal Rom 11:17. & Fellow citizens with Y’sreal Eph 2I have been grafted into a Jewish family, Praise & Worship a Jewish Rabbi who died for the sins of the world & has asked us to keep His Comments/Covenant. Everyone who wrote the Bible was Jewish, I believe from the Bible believers should keep G-d’s Appointed times, His Feasts Lev 23. They are not Jewish customs & the Sabbath starts them off, it’s a Feast / Appointed time every week. And we see the Sabbath The Feast Etc all throughout the N.T. being followed not replaced. Is 1 Bible, 1 CovenantG-d’s Commandments / Laws / Torah / Instructions are a Covenant, & G-d doesn’t break Covenant Ps 89:34. His Word is Everlasting, and the Word spoken is the Torah. His Torah, Laws are what He thinks is right, it’s how we know Him 1 John 2:3, its what sets his people apart / Holy from the world, because the rest of the world doesn’t keep the Sabbath, doesn’t eat kosher, doesn’t keep the Feasts of G-d, doesn’t keep His Law’s. I believe G-d is One, and He has One Way, for one group of people, His people. I read the Bible in the Jewish sense it was written, I do word studies Hebrew and Greek, but the Greek word studies I do focus and speak of things written the O.T. So why I go get the Hebrew meaning of the thing spoken in the N.T. to get the full understanding what that is speaking of in the N.T. Y’shua is G-d, He gave the Torah / Laws to the children of Y’srael, which happened to be jew and Gentile Ex 12, and He called them all the children of Y’sreal after their first Passover Ex 12and same thing in the N.T., we are grafted into Y’srael by receiving the blood of the Passover Lamb and now one Torah is unto us Exodus chapter 12 Messiah is the Lamb of G-d Passover Luke 1, & we’re grafted into Y’sraelI could go on and on and on, but for me it boils down to discipleship. We are all call to discipleship that means imitate, copycat our Jewish Rabbi, how He lived, how He ate, how He spoke, what He said, how He walked, and how He talked 1 John 2he that says he abides in Him, ought himself also to walk, even as He walked.Y’shua was obedient which made Him sinseless / Lawful, so since I’m trying to imitate Him, walking like Him, I find myself keeping the Torah, his Instructions 4 Life and nothing bothers me Ps 119:165. It’s like a model plane, you don’t know how to set up the model without the instructions, so I read the instructions that is presented before me so my model comes out the way it’s supposed to. Christian means Christ-Like, I try, and my heart’s desire is to look like Him. It doesn’t make me Jewish, it’s not about being Jewish, it’s about me being obedient to His Commands to his people. The Laws aren’t Jewish, the Laws are G-d’sJudaizers is represented in Acts chapter 15, the book of Galatians. That your work in the Law outside of Messiah save you & the Gentile has to become circumcised and keep all the Law of Moshe to be saved. That was yoke of bondage in Acts chapter 15:10, because neither they nor their fathers had to live like that to be saved. And just a quick note here there is no such thing as Christian judaizers, they weren’t saved they didn’t believe in Messiah, the only believed in the works as you did in the LawShalo________________Ps 122:6
You all will be amazed how close we are in beliefs & how much of the Law are you really do. I guess that sums me up really is my favorite chapter in the Bible Psalms 11________________Ps 122:6
Judaizers is represented in Acts chapter 15, the book of Galatians. That your work in the Law outside of Messiah save you & the Gentile has to become circumcised and keep all the Law of Moshe to be saved. That was yoke of bondage in Acts chapter 15:10, because neither they nor their fathers had to live like that to be saved. So, Isa, you are telling me that you DO NOT believe that a Gentile has to become circumcised or keep all the Law of Moses to be saved? If we don’t have to be circumcised, then why would we have to abide by, say, dietary rules of the Law?Am I misreading you? And just a quick note here there is no such thing as Christian judaizers, they weren’t saved they didn’t believe in Messiah, the only believed in the works as you did in the LawBut aren’t you claiming that if we aren’t doing the Law, we are being disobedient to God? Aren’t you claiming–in so many words–that if we don’t do the Law, we are not pleasing God?
I just had this conversation with a friend of mine on circumcision, I don’t have all the answers on this, & it’s not for salvation. I believe in the Bible that a Gentile who becomes a believer does. Not for salvation though. Abraham the Gentile did @ a very old age Gen 17:24, it is Commanded that a new convert is circumcised before his 1st Passover Ex 12:43-44. This connects with the N.T. 1 Cor 11:27-30about someone who is not right with the L-rdThere r others, but Y’shua was circumcised on the 8th day Luke 2:21& He says this in John 7if a man on the Sabbath day receives circumcision, that the Law of Moshe should not be broken are you angry at me because I have made him and every whit whole on the Sabbath day?Y’shua says the Law of Moshe should not be broken & He speaks of circumcision & the Sabbath. & We can talk about Galatians which speaks on this issue, but when it says them of the circumcision & un circumcision it is speaking of Jews & Gentiles. Then we have Titus in Gal 3:2…Did u know that this is still an issue for the Jews? It’s that old, they still don’t know what to do. I say yes, because circumcision is the sign of the Covenant in Gen 17:13, G-d said He would circumcise our hearts. In the Torah He says in Deut 10:16G-d Commands men to circumcise there hearts & be no more stiffnecked. In the New Covenant G-d circumcises our hearts Deut 30:6, Col 2:11… That’s what’s so great about the New Covenant, He does the work.Acts 15& Gal speak (& ur right, I miss spoke, the judaizers did know the L-rd, I had my mind on something else) but their program for Gentiles coming into the faith was that if it Gentiles coming to the faith, and if you wanted to be right with God, he had to take on the whole Law of Moshe & be circumcised, especially for salvation. Which there is no Commandment in the Torah like that. This false Doctrine was dealt with in the book of Acts 15, and strongly condemned in the book of Galatians.Well that took longer than I thought LOL, and yes, New Testament believers have to keep the kosher laws, N.T.says that’s one of the 4 requirements in Acts 15for a Gentile, he will learn the rest when he goes to the synagogue every Sabbath day and here’s Moshe, Torah Acts 15:21. It speaks of them but no one ever looked to see what they’re based on and where they came from, but people always quote it.& I’m not claiming anything, if we are all believers doesn’t iron sharpen iron in Proverbs? We are all in the family of G-d. 2 Tim 4:2-5explains it very well that people were turn their ears from the truth (truth is Torah Psalms 119 160) ….I had so much to put down, going to have to be at another time. Well I hope I answered some if not all of your questions Aaron, if I hadn’t I’m sure you let me know what they are and I’ll try to do it again. I’m doing this for my phoneShalo________________Ps 122:6
I marvel that you could cite Acts 15while claiming the Judaizers were not believers. The whole chapter negates your entire argument.5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.â€
So I repost it in two translations for those who can’t rightly divide the truth anymore since their eyes are being blinded by their pride. Not only did my namesake James under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, utilizing the Gift of Wisdom deal with the issue of circumcision and the Law en toto (totality) in Acts 15but Paul himself (who as a Jew of the Jews certainly understood whether the Law was necessary to salvation in Christ) addresses it rather forcefully in the verses here in Galations 5. JD please ignore those who would try to take our liberty in Christ and make us slaves once again to the Law. What a joke!Gal 5:6-12KJV For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. (7) Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? (This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. (9) A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. (10) I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be. (11) And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased. (12) I would they were even cut off which trouble you.Gal 5:6-12NIV
If you don’t have to follow the Law for salvation, but (apparently) DO have to follow it to be obedient to God, then, if I am reading you correctly, you are led to conclude that one can keep one’s salvation while remaining disobedient to God.l To say that you don’t have to obey the Law to GET saved…but do have to obey to STAY saved…comes out to the same thing: namely, you must follow the Law for salvation.
Does this mean I cannot wear linen with wool________________
Re: Judaizers were certainly "believers" and not mere Jews
If they were believers unc, why did they say: the gentiles must be circumcised and are required to keep all the Law of Moshe…. That’s clearly sidestepping Y’shua________________Ps 122:6
.james, again, the Law is not for salvation…that’s what Paul is addressing in Gal 5:1-4. Liberty, that is addressed in 2 Cor 3Now Adonai is that Spirit and where the Spirit of Adonai is, there is LibertyThe Greek word for Liberty is eletheria: it is a freedom represented as including independence from religious and legal restriction, legalism. True Liberty does not include a license to send Romans 31-2,15, James 1:25, 2:12, Ps 119:452nd Cor 3:17 is connected to 2 Cor 2for we are not as many who corrupt the Word of G-d. False teachers will promise Liberty but turn from the Holy Commandments, 2 Pet 2:1,19. Btw, there is no conflict between Law & Liberty Ps 119so should I keep the Law continually forever and ever 45: and I will walk at Liberty for I seek your PreceptsGal 5:1bondage, Gal 2and that because of false Brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our Liberty which we have a Messiah Y’shua, that they might bring us into bondage (Acts 15:1,5,10,24)Gal 4even so we, when we were children, were in bondageunder the elements of the world (Col 2:20)…Gal 4but now after that you have known G-d, or rather are known of G-d, how to turn you(this is a key) again to the weak and beggarly elements(vs 3) run to you desire again to be in bondage…U used Gal 5you did run well, who did hinder(Gal 2:4) you you should not obey the Truth, what is Truth James? Ps 119:142; your Righteousness is an Everlasting Righteousness and your Law is Truth. James, who has Bewitched you that you should not obey the Truth? Please read Galatians 1:8-9again, it’s very important we catch this Galatians not talking about the law of G-d, which is the Law of Mosh________________Ps 122:6
that is the most convoluted, twisted
Re: that is the most convoluted, twisted
Please james, breakdown what I said like I do for you and please show me what I have wrong, no need to get upset let’s work it ou________________Ps 122:6
Please, show me the verse where Y’shua said I came to set you free of the Law of Moshe because it’s foolishness. And read my post again sheik, my message is nothing like theirs I’m not telling you y’all need to be circumcised and to keep all the Law of Moshe to be saved________________Ps 122:6
Please, show me the verse where Y’shua said I came to set you free of the Law of Moshe because it’s foolishness. And read my post again sheik, my message is nothing like theirs I’m not telling you y’all need to be circumcised and to keep all the Law of Moshe to be saved. Right, you are not saying we must be circumcised to be saved. Yet you imply that to be obedient to God, we must keep the law. Yet how can we stay saved if we are not being obedient to God?????Please address this. I also noticed you said “all the Law of Moshe.†Well, what parts of the Law, then, can we safely ignore?
So what this seems to be a gentile that really appreciates Jewish culture, even writing as a Jewish person would (G-d, L-rd, Y’shua, etc.). I totally understand the love of that culture, but we are not for the most part Jewish. Being grafted in does not mean assimilating to that culture and their customs and laws. The work of righteousness for the Christian comes from Christ’s work on the cross,, “because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.â€â€â€Romans‬ â€8:2-4‬ â€NIV‬‬As this is a continuation from the previous chapter, Paul was clearly speaking of the Law of Moses. He even referred to the 10th commandment (covetousness), Rom. 7:7. So which is it? You seem bent on making the the Mosaic Law binding on the Christian in order to please God. Where does the line get drawn? And how is that any different than the Judaizers? The net result is the same; Law as a requirement to be in right standing with God.I admit I’m not the sharpest axe in the shed, but I have a firm grasp on solid NT.I attend church with a Messianic Jew from the Netherlands that does not carry on as Isa 58does. Great brother in the Lord________________The World As I See Itworldjeffreysees.blogspot.com/Revuriah’s Facebookwww.facebook.com/people/Jeff-Richard/1226257444Jeffrey David Richard’s Myspace Musicwww.myspace.com/547856946
Shabbat Shalom, I haven’t talked to you in a long time 🙂. Well let me just start off by asking u N.T. questions since ur solid on it to think about, no answer needed. U + others seem to think I’m binding G-ds Laws/Instructions on u. My questions, how come after the death and resurrection of Messiah the disciples, apostles, are still keeping the Laws / Torah& the N.T. supports that veiw, in all texts of the Bible. Example Rev 14 here is the patience of the Saints here are they that keep the Commandments of G-d and the faith of Y’shua& is that really true discipleship/imitation of our Savior Y’shua. Because He kept the Laws in obedience not in requirement. 1 John 2he that says he abides in Him himself also to walk, even as He walked. Y’shua kept instruction of the father that’s John chapter 12 and 14. It’s even in the Bible lesson this week I posted😉And again, I say, it’s not about being Jewish or grafted into Y’srael and we do what they do, how else are we going to victim of jealousy if they don’t see us doing what they do Rom 11:11. G-d gave them the Oracles of G-d in Rom 3:2. Everybody’s concerned about their cultures, believe me I hear this all the time. We don’t turn Jewish our blood doesn’t turn Jewish etc. We r grafted into G-ds Way of life He set up for His people. & We’re either going to do it, or be just like the children of Y’srael they didn’t want to keep His Commandments eitherYou talked about where does the line get drawn in the sand, I believe God is already Drawing the Line in the Sand, and people are erasing it everyday. That’s called editing G-d. Look, you can live anyway you want but make sure is based upon the Bible in all text of the Bible, not one scripture here one scripture there. ShabBAT Shalo________________Ps 122:6
Just ordered it Mark. Looking forward to reading it. Is it an e-book yet, I didn’t check should have and I could have read it sooner.A very important subject. but you have put it on paper________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
There are things the average COG family never thought they would face. The first was divorce. The second was drugs. Now Alzheimer jumps up, not in the category of divorce or drugs,. but an area that can attack the best of people.Unfortunately my wife and I have faced and lived with divorce in our sons lives. Then Drugs in both of their lives. Actions caused by bad decisions and leaving God’s protection is the root.. BUT THIS????My mother a saint, suffered dementia. We took her into our home. We shared the care giving with my sister. Mama was a child of God, no more dedicated person ever lived, but she fell victim.Now I have one sibling living, a sister. She is being attacked by this. It could be me next, even before settling my sister’s situation. In that respect GP, you are certainly right. ________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
The book is very short but succinct. I read half last nite, I will finish tonight. ________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
In our lifetime we will see the USA as we know it replaced by smaller confederations of States. As long as the conservatives have nukes, that will be fine with me________________
In our lifetime we will see the USA as we know it replaced by smaller confederations of States. As long as the conservatives have nukes, that will be fine with me.
I think America will pull together. This is still the greatest or at least in my opinion the best country in the world. I am not looking for an implosion I expect better things for the country. I am not sure Trump can or will pull it together, but I think he will pave the way for someone who can.I ran a construction company when interest rates went up to the 20’s, lots failed, but many made it thru. i smile when I see so much construction and although I get frustrated at the road work we need it and I am glad to see it.(Road work reference Florida and South Carolina )I do not see the break up of the USA, I am hoping for more unity, in the long run. I have traveled some back roads in several countries, none compare to this beautiful country.We are truly blessed! BTW I posted the OP just because I have seen very little accolades for Trump, this ain’t much but at least a comparison was made and it was noted the negative press seems to be recognized. I am not a ‘Trumper’ (at lesast I don’t think so), But I want to back the President where I think he is doing well. ________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
It looks like Trump’s approval rating is only about 1 point something less than the amount of popular votes he received during the election. Obama’s approval raiting was nearly 7% lower________________
If you do not mind buying the ISBN, that makes you the publisher, not the printer, but the publisher. Before I realized I wasn’t going to write a Tom Sawyer or a Harry Potter I bought ten ISBNs. Once I owned the ISBN’s i needed a name. Out of the Blue I created J & S Publishing. I don’t think anyone can trace that to me unless they are VERY INTERESTED TO find out. As far as Pen names, that is neither wrong or hiding. Most high profile writers can and do produce more than one book a year. So the other books they write are under a Pen name. Some Pen names are accepted as THE MAN It was years before I knew ‘Jack Higgins’, one of my favorite writers, was a Pen Name. Nothing deceptive about it.In reality it would probably be no problem just to publish under a Pen name and forget it.That is a personal call.Hope you are well my friend. ________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
I really don’t think it is practical or Biblical to place an age restriction on the pastorate. Many other cultures respect and look to the ldrerly as authorities. I sure hope that in the next 10-20 years I learn more about the Bible and common sense practical knowledge through life’s experiences. My goal is to be challenged daily by others who want to grow and learn more about God. Yes, I wish I had the energy of a 25 year-old. I am not pointing fingers at others but I am glad for the ability to learn and not do the supid things I did at 35 or 45 again because I learned from my dumb mistakes. Maybe I am in the minority but when needing advice (natural or spiritual) I am much more likely to look to somebody 20 years older than me with a proven track record in life and ministry than somebody 20 years younger.Another advantage for elderly pastros is that most should be able to use the younger people in ministry and help others develop their giftings. One reason is because of the energy level that is missing as compared to younger pastors. Another factor is that without children to raise (as compared to younger pastors) the elderly has more time to help other ministers develop. When young I and most pastors who are honest would admit we had ambitions to be the mega-ministry and the man of the hour. Healthy elderly pastors are content with the flock in his or her care and want to see younger people grow. One is less threatened when realizing that they can’t proselytize or steal part of the church when we are not trying to build a big thing for ourselves.
This is another great argument for having a plurality of pastor-elders rather than a single pastor. With a plurality of pastor-elders, the answer is never. Having a 90 year-old on that team providing his wisdom and perspective to the other elders would be an amazing blessing.
Most churches today don’t want an older man. If I suddenly decided to come out of retirement, I’d probably have to start a new work________________
Churches that are small and in financial difficulty don’t have a lot of choices. A retired pastor that was 85 took a small, struggling church here in NC & stayed there a year or so until his health forced him back into retirement________________More of Him…less of me.twitter.com/camiracle77www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=691241499&ref=name
Couldn’t agree more. When I was in the corporate world I was “reassignedâ€,or moved horizontally when I reached the age of 59. No explanations were given, even though I asked for and was granted a meeting with the executive that made the decision. When I asked if I’d done something wrong he was quick to say I had done nothing wrong. He simply wanted to make a change.The person that replaced me was 13 years my junior. Coincidence? I think not.And yes, I have seen many older pastors edged out, as well as witness many older ministers denied one opportunity after another________________“Hell will be filled with people that didn’t cuss, didn’t drink, and may even have been baptized. Why? Because none of those things makes someone a Christian.”
What are some of the reasons that churches don’t want an older pastor? Does image carry more weight than it should,meaning a smiling,young,energetic face is more desirable than one with a few wrinkles? If this is true, what does this say about the church’s priorities being in order________________“Hell will be filled with people that didn’t cuss, didn’t drink, and may even have been baptized. Why? Because none of those things makes someone a Christian.”
Years ago an elderly sister in the church came to me to share her heart over being “set aside†in favor of a younger person. Her chief complaint was that all of the elderly saints were being told they weren’t needed,that it was time for the younger ones to take over. While her statement was a bit of an exaggeration, her point was well taken because that I’d exactly what was taking place in our church. The church does itself great harm by not utilizing its senior members in leadership positions. It’s almost like we are counting their wisdom and experience as no longer needed, when we all know how untrue that is________________“Hell will be filled with people that didn’t cuss, didn’t drink, and may even have been baptized. Why? Because none of those things makes someone a Christian.”
I’ll be 59 pretty soon …might as well say 60 at this point in terms of cultural perception.I wouldn’t think twice about going to another church if the Lord led me & I was voted in.________________Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!Email me at: [email protected] planters are focused on just one thing …introducing people to Jesus!
I am sure a 79 year old opinion is discarded as nearly senile. But one morning early i drove by my home church, In noticed the pastors car there and the secretaries. So I stopped to talked to him. We, his gypsy members were leaving town soon, and he was retiring. He is in his mid 60’s. He stated to me that he needed to find some area of income, since he was retiring. That type of thing shocks me. He has pastored top salary churches and taught in college as a part time job and his wife has worked full time. He is retiring and not ready to.He felt like his time was up at our present church, it is slowly going down. In my mind I am saying, you are 12 years younger than I, why not look for another church.WE all know if you presently have a church, (job) it is easier to ‘swap’ or be appointed by an overseer than if you have none.NO, YOU ARE NEVER TOO OLD TO BE A BLESSING, but age sure does cut down on the opportunities that give some compensation.I am an old man, but some of my best pastors have been older than I was________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
I am sure a 79 year old opinion is discarded as nearly senile. But one morning early i drove by my home church, In noticed the pastors car there and the secretaries. So I stopped to talked to him. We, his gypsy members were leaving town soon, and he was retiring. He is in his mid 60’s. He stated to me that he needed to find some area of income, since he was retiring. That type of thing shocks me. He has pastored top salary churches and taught in college as a part time job and his wife has worked full time. He is retiring and not ready to.He felt like his time was up at our present church, it is slowly going down. In my mind I am saying, you are 12 years younger than I, why not look for another church.WE all know if you presently have a church, (job) it is easier to ‘swap’ or be appointed by an overseer than if you have none.NO, YOU ARE NEVER TOO OLD TO BE A BLESSING, but age sure does cut down on the opportunities that give some compensation.I am an old man, but some of my best pastors have been older than I was________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
Good word!My dad is till on our leadership team at 80 & he has been aCOG Bishop for 57 years or since he was 23. He & mom celebrated their 61st anniversary today!BTW, he also has a small church of his own on the other side of town that doesn’t run very much & they have an odd schedule but he keeps busy with it ________________Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!Email me at: [email protected] planters are focused on just one thing …introducing people to Jesus!
Biblically, shouldn’t we expect there to be aged pastors?Let’s consider the Biblical background for the pastoral ministry. Who did the apostles appoint to oversee and pastor local churches? In Acts 13-14, Paul and Barnabas preached and left behind believers in various cities. Apparently, the believers gathered together as churches. But it wasn’t until some time later that Paul and Barnabas returned and appointed leaders. What kind of elders, elders?The Bible says they appointed elders in every church. That could also be translated they appointed ‘older men’ in every church. In Acts 20:28, Paul tells the elders of the church in Ephesus to
This is good stuff right here________________“Hell will be filled with people that didn’t cuss, didn’t drink, and may even have been baptized. Why? Because none of those things makes someone a Christian.”
Can you provide the content of the statement that led you off on this long string of uncharitable assumptions?The gender of πνεῦμα is neutral. There’s some disagreement among even conservative Greek scholars concerning whether
This is an indirect result of making the Spirit a separate person from the Father to begin with. It is inconceivable that the Jews viewed the God that created the Heavens and the Earth and the Spirit of God that moved over the face of the waters as anything other than the same person. Jesus said of the Father, God is Spirit. Jehovah said that in the last days I will pour out of MY Spirit upon all flesh. The Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary and she conceived. Did Jesus have 2 Fathers? In Bible College, the textbook for our Theology class was one printed by the Four Square organization. In the chapter of about the Trinity, God the Father took up dozens of pages as well as God the son. Interestingly, God the Holy Ghost took up very few pages. This speaks very loudly. Jesus said that the Spirit would be another Comforter, not another God. He is another Comforter because the one who was currently the disciple’s Comforter was about to bodily depart to Heaven and would no longer be visible to them. But this does not at all mean that the Spirit would be anyone or anything different than as the Jews understood him beginning in Genesis 1:2. The Holy Spirit is God, the masculine He who stretched for the Heavens ALONE________________
This is an indirect result of making the Spirit a separate person from the Father to begin with. It is inconceivable that the Jews viewed the God that created the Heavens and the Earth and the Spirit of God that moved over the face of the waters as anything other than the same person. Jesus said of the Father, God is Spirit. Jehovah said that in the last days I will pour out of MY Spirit upon all flesh. The Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary and she conceived. Did Jesus have 2 Fathers? In Bible College, the textbook for our Theology class was one printed by the Four Square organization. In the chapter of about the Trinity, God the Father took up dozens of pages as well as God the son. Interestingly, God the Holy Ghost took up very few pages. This speaks very loudly. Jesus said that the Spirit would be another Comforter, not another God. He is another Comforter because the one who was currently the disciple’s Comforter was about to bodily depart to Heaven and would no longer be visible to them. But this does not at all mean that the Spirit would be anyone or anything different than as the Jews understood him beginning in Genesis 1:2. The Holy Spirit is God, the masculine He who stretched for the Heavens ALONE. For the 1st time, u & I are in total agreement 😋It’s like school with books for children saying that they’re little girls and that’s okay. Teaching boys that’s okay to be girls is disgusting. I chalk this up with tha________________Ps 122:6
I think we all know that God is not "male" in the sense that humans are male.
He transcends gender divisions. We know that. And yet, God CHOSE to call Himself a FATHER. Why? I think it was at least two-fold: 1) To distinguish from the many goddess religions of that time and place; and 2) because He functions more in the stereotypical father sense (I think) than in the stereotypical mother sense.However, since we agree that God is neither male nor female in the traditional sense of the word, we still see that God is represented as a FATHER…and as a SON. But that clearly begs the question of, If there is a Father, and if there is a Son, then is there a Mother?I don’t consider the Holy Ghost to be feminine in any particular way (certainly no more so than the Father or Son), but if MAY BE that, in keeping with the familial assignments of Father and Son, there could be someone who, while neither male nor female, functions in some sense as the Mother element to the Father and Son.Possible?
If the Father and Son are persons of a being called God, then how is their Father and Son relationship even real? It seems more like some sort of role playing________________
Re: I think we all know that God is not "male" in the sense that humans are male.
Re: PTS & Holy Spirit a “She�
Re: PTS & Holy Spirit a “She�
If the post is public on social media, why not call the name of the professor? Are you afraid that someone will investigate and see that you are telling half the story? Just tell it straight up! Maybe the student was half listening.
The Son is eternally begotten of the Father, and the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father and the Son. It’s hard to see any hint or possibility in Scripture of a Mother element in the Godhead.
STILL BETTER THAN ISA 58
Re: NEVER MIND, MY WIFE IS MAKING ME WATCH ICE DANCING
I hope it isn’t the two polar bears I just received ice skating! LOLI am picking a word of my own choosing but still cannot print it! ________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
Made me laugh! ________________More of Him…less of me.twitter.com/camiracle77www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=691241499&ref=name
My wife and I went out to eat last night. When my wife asked the server what soft drinks were available, one of the options the waitress gave was Dr. Pibb.
Have you noticed that OTCP
NEVER posts on any of the threads with our non brother Is-a. Hmmmmmmmmm
Well that’s probably the most anti-Semitic comment I’ve ever heard. If that’s how you feel, throw away your Bible. The Bible is a Jewish Book, written by Jews, for the Jews, gentiles are grafted into G-ds Family, Y’sreal, the Jews. The Bible talks about a Jewish culture which G-d Himself instilled. The Bible talks about G-d’s Way of lifesurrounded in Y’shua, & people reject it & don’t even know why 😑I’m not preaching the Jewish gospel, I’m preaching the gospel of Y’shua who happens to be a Jewish Rabbi who died for the sins of the world. & when He comes back, He will bring the New Y’erusalem down with Him and Rule from there..,You’re tired of hearing from a Jewish Bible the gospel? 🤔This just proves Galatians is speaking to you who has Bewitched you that you should not obey the Truth😔. You all call urselves church OF G-d, that’s a big responsibility, big statement, & u do not have ears to hear & will be judged for it 😑. This really breaks my heart, people who say they love G-d but act like this. Im sorry, I’m really sorry. Bible talks about another group of people not wanting to hear or do what G-d said either, they didn’t make it to the promised land 😔I’m very sorry I came back, I thought you guys would have changed by now, study things for yourself, I was wrong, you guys seem worse, meaner. You guys can have a mature conversation on any biblical point. I listen to what you said and then I gave the the full meaning, in all texts of the Bible. I just let the Bible interpret itself, you guys should too instead of the twisting of Paul’s lette________________Ps 122:6
The reason why I didn’t get on this thread, cuz I didn’t know what OTCP ment. I thought you were all talking about your church or rules or something. But no I find that you’re all talking about me 😒. I was told that if I get on your guys threads and if I say Truth you guys don’t like, you always blame me for taking away from the thread, I never do that. It is you guys that argue with my point is when the thread gets taken away, you guys go off in another Directio________________Ps 122:6
And Who has in-laws from Israel, pray for the peace of Jerusalem often I find your accusation of being anti Semitic total garbage. Most probably you aren’t even Jewish by blood but Have been so deceived into thinking you are spiritual in trying to observe Torah etc you are in BONDAGE and can’t even see it. You probably wear a kippa and a talit too.
No such thing as a half Jew, if their mother was Jewish then the child is Jewish no matter the father, but you know that because you know Jewish things right🙄. You don’t know what you’re talking about, and what you said was very anti-Semitic and you never answered one thing I said. You’re always learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the Truth. That were Truth is G-d’s Torah in all texts of the Bible. & You may be knowledgeable in Jewish things, but you’re not knowledgeable in G-d’s things or you would see the benefit of keeping G-d’s Torah Ps 1:1-3, Ps 119________________Ps 122:6
You can go into my thread of the Ten words/ Commandments and see where I put up the 613 Commandments law of Moshe, and you go through there and pick out the ones that are bindin________________Ps 122:6
Re: Her mother is Jewish, Israel considers her Jewish
She’s proud of her heritage but she’s prouder to be called a Christian not a Messianic Jew. She doesn’t have to wear a kippa and a talit to PROVE who she is either. (And I know women don’t wear them just making a poiint).
Christian….😊 Christ-Like…..😃 what was He like?🤔….He was Jewish ðŸ˜________________Ps 122:6
Did u find me some Commandments/Torah/Law that are binding yet?🤔. That’s gonna be a great conversation 😉. I will be waiting to hear from you ðŸ˜Shalo________________Ps 122:6
It must get expense going to Jerusalem three times every year, not to mention the cost of buying all those sheep and other sacrifices. I was wondering, by whom and where are your sacrifices offered? Its so good to be a Gentile believer – Jesus – any day, any place!
It must get expense going to Jerusalem three times every year, not to mention the cost of buying all those sheep and other sacrifices. I was wondering, by whom and where are your sacrifices offered? Its so good to be a Gentile believer – Jesus – any day, any place! Mat It’s so good to be a believer in Y’shua 😇. & We don’t go to Y’erusalem 3 times a year, nor do I sacrifice. No Temple, no sacrifice, Yshua was the Perfect sacrifice Heb 10😉Shalo________________Ps 122:6
Baruch HaShem, Praise the L-rd ðŸ˜________________Ps 122:6
Haha, of course not.However, he has publicly stated the facts that I have posted here.I’m not a doctor, but a clammy, limp body that is not breathing, and has no heart beat, can be considered a dead person.And a person that breathes, talks and walks is considered a living person.
This is one of the reasons I quit posting or even visiting for months. God obviously intervened. Can we at least praise Him for that________________The World As I See Itworldjeffreysees.blogspot.com/Revuriah’s Facebookwww.facebook.com/people/Jeff-Richard/1226257444Jeffrey David Richard’s Myspace Musicwww.myspace.com/547856946
This is one of the reasons I quit posting or even visiting for months. Good d obviously intervened. Can we at least praise Him for that?
Awesome! Praise God________________More of Him…less of me.twitter.com/camiracle77www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=691241499&ref=name
Haha, of course not.However, he has publicly stated the facts that I have posted here.I’m not a doctor, but a clammy, limp body that is not breathing, and has no heart beat, can be considered a dead person.And a person that breathes, talks and walks is considered a living person.This lady was dead, and now she is alive. ________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
Great question. The Department of Education and the Council for Higher Education Accreditation maintain lists of legitimate accrediting agencies.ope.ed.gov/accreditation/agencies.aspxwww.chea.org/4DCGI/cms/review.html?Action=CMS_Document&DocID=38&MenuKey=mainA good school will list their accrediting agencies, usually in the About or Academics section of their website. You can then verify those agencies against this list to confirm they are legitimate.Some agencies are regional accrediting agencies and some are national accrediting agencies. They’re both legitimate, but in different scopes. Whether that is relevant or not will depend on the career expectations associated with the degree. There is no such thing as an international accreditation, which some fake schools claim.Here’s some more info that goes into checking out programmatic accreditation, etc:www.usnews.com/higher-education/online-education/articles/2017-06-12/how-to-check-if-an-online-program-is-accredited-follow-5-steps
dynamic list of unrecognized accrediting agenciesen.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unrecognized_higher_education_accreditation_organizations#N
I had a conversation once in the founding president of the Asian Theological Association, which accredits seminaries and Bible Schools in Asia. He listed off the different accreditation associations. There was another one that accredited the liberal seminaries in Asia, whose name I forget. ATA even accredited some seminaries in the US, like some Korean language. schools.The Association of Theological Schools accredited a lot of the seminaries, Assemblies of God Theological Seminary and Pentecostal Theological seminary. But they also accredit Dallas Theological Seminary and Harvard Divinity School.There is also the Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools. I got the impression from him that this was not as prestigious as the ATA accreditation. I mentioned Luther Rice had TRACS accreditation, and he said they were one of the better TRACS schools.You do realize, don’t you, that as new schools form, they have to go through a multi-year process to get accredited. I am an accreditation coordination for one type of accreditation (not theology) at my university, and I am on a committee for another type of accreditation. I am rather junior in my career for either role, but I’m in Asia and it’s a different ball game out here. You start out with an application to be considered for accreditation, and then there is a multi-year process that might take five years before they are ready to consider you accredited. If you demonize non-accredited programs, you are opposing the founding and growth of new schools in a way, since schools start out unaccredited, at least by theological accreditation bodies.There are also regional forms of accreditation. But again, we are talking about a long and tedious process. With the two programs I work with, the regional accreditation body’s application is probably a lot more involved and more tedious than the other, though putting together the applications is certainly no piece of cake. Fortunately, I did not have to do much of the writing by myself. I wrote up one section for one accreditation application, but mostly editted the other. It looks like I will have to do a lot more writing and revising going forward________________
It’s a cost of doing business and a necessary barrier to entry. There are surely unaccredited schools where one could receive an excellent education, but if a student wants to be sure his/her education is legitimate and that his/her degree will be respected, he/she needs to attend an accredited school.
Thanks Dave Dorsey and Brotherjames
I appreciate the references you posted in this thread. I am sure some unaccredited schools provide a solid education. However, I believe many accredited schools.do the same. I do my best to counsel young people as if I was talking to my own child.
There are places for unaccredited schools who do provide quality education.
Re: With all of that,
I only KNOW of this because a friend was involved in buying the ‘Hundreds of books’ required by ‘accreditation groups??’ for Lee College(University) to aid in qualifying for higher accreditation. In one incident in NYC they found many books they needed. The SELLER was asking thousands +thousands of $. The assisting buyer (my friend) said ‘There is no one else bidding, let’s offer <$. I am sure we can save the school some money.’
Great question.Did AJT set the course for this?Was it in the Evangel?I would like to know also________________
Great question.Did AJT set the course for this?Was it in the Evangel?I would like to know also. The thing is, I am so exhausted on Sunday night when I get home after two services (plus we usually have choir practice at 4pm BEFORE the night service) I can barely function. I’m not the pastor or even a preacher. Just an active member. I can’t imagine how the pastor feels after delivering two messages, praying with people, etc.When is our day of rest? I have yet to take one________________
From what I understand, evening services were initially observed when we were an agricultural society. Farmers typically worked 6 days a week. They would have the morning service, have a meal and fellowship, and then meet again for worship before returning home. I have also heard that during WWII, many men (and women ) worked 7 days a week to keep up with production demands. The Sunday evening services allowed these laborers to still attend worship services. Today, they tend to be believer meetings. Very few unsaved people in attendance. As you referenced, many from within our congregation would like to have Sunday evening services. I think every congregation is different. Seems to work for some, and others prefer to have the night off. For others, it is simply a sacred cow. But you summed it up well. It certainly makes Sunday anything but a day of rest.
Sunday night services also used to begin at 7:30pm instead of 6pm, when I was growing up, so you really did have time to chill for a while between services. I used to be faithful to Sunday night, but we stopped having it regularly when my pastor developed health problems. We had to make some changes. Once we stopped having the services, I have wound up taking a 2-3 hour nap Sunday afternoon/evening. I thought I would attend elsewhere, but that rarely happens. And there aren’t many churches that have them anymore. Now I wonder how I used to do all that every week!I try to take Friday night & Saturday morning as my Sabbath. I agree, Sunday is not a day of rest for most people who are active in church________________More of Him…less of me.twitter.com/camiracle77www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=691241499&ref=name
From the beginning of time (that I can remember) it has been preached STRONGLY ‘Fair not to assemble yourselves together’. That was interpreted to mean, Be in church every time the doors are open! Honestly the folks that made all 6 or 7 services looked with disdain on those who did not.THAT WAS NOT FAIR NOR A GOOD CHRISTIAN ATTITUDE, but it was the truth. The pastor would fall short of calling the ‘slackers’ back slid-den, but he would come as close as he could with out REALLY insulting his members and tithe payers. Honestly folk who attend Sunday night services should meet in a class room for fellowship and prayer. JMHO ________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
Sunday night is our worst service of the week, statistically and spiritually. Very, very seldom does a person show up on Sunday night, that wasn’t there Sunday morning. They are usually worn out, worn down, and in no mood for a worship service.People want and need to have a little down time, but having a Sunday morning and night service doesn’t allow that.Sunday night is a problem, I’ve never been able to solve.Have services and its like pulling teeth. Everybody looks tired and disinterested. Nobody wants to be there, or so it seems.But if you decide to cancel PM services, those 5 people, who wanted to keep them going, are going to make your life miserable. But secretly….they’ll be glad you killed that service, just like everyone else________________
dismissed the evening services. Every single person gladly accepted this. we had families that worked hard all week and had to fit some type of family activity between 12 and 6 PM and then hurry up and get back for the PM. Many of them coming early to AM music practice.So our Pastor believed that dismissing the PM would actually create a better quality AM. It worked and we never looked back!One thing that we do, is we have an occasional PM service. Our Church loves it!
I guess some counseling sessions require unique settings to be effective.Actually this is pretty sick!!~ I am hoping it is not someone known in these circles. ________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
Touche________________
You really have to wonder what outcome was expected here.At least if you’re having an affair in a hotel room while on a business trip you can maintain the delusion that your sin won’t find you out.
A new groundbreaking counseling protocol??Nude Uber?
Just when you think you’ve seen it all..________________
Just bc he calls himself a pastor doesn’t mean he is one.This dude has some real issues to boast that he & the dude meet up regularly to play with each other …at 61 yrs of age???Somebody def missed their calling & then bragged it’s no big deal________________Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!Email me at: [email protected] planters are focused on just one thing …introducing people to Jesus!
I mean, its an old song and all but many years ago we sang a song by the Talley’s called When Anyone Looks at Me and it was effective________________
Thanks! I haven’t heard it but will definitely check it out________________“Hell will be filled with people that didn’t cuss, didn’t drink, and may even have been baptized. Why? Because none of those things makes someone a Christian.”
Thank God for the Preacher. I think it’s been done by the Crabb family and also by Mike Bowling..________________Our careless feet leaving trails
I’ve heard both of those versions. Thank________________“Hell will be filled with people that didn’t cuss, didn’t drink, and may even have been baptized. Why? Because none of those things makes someone a Christian.”
Our God Reigns is based on Isaiah 52How lovely on the mountains are the feet of them, who bring good news, good news. Announcing peace, proclaiming news of happiness. Our God TReigns, Our God Reigns.Some may consider the song too old these days but, the Book of Isaiah is never too old (in my opinion)[email protected]________________
Thank God and Greyhound you’re gone.That is of course an appreciation to the previous pastor – not the current one________________
Thanks for asking, Dave. I’d be happy to help in any way I can to answer questions about this. It is actually one of my favorite subjects. (Wednesdays are actually my busiest day of the week, so I may not be able to respond further until late tonight or tomorrow, but again, I am happy to try to answer any questions that may arise as time permits).I find scriptural support for many of the different models of atonement, except for the penal substitution (PS) view. Essentially, for me it comes down to the questions, “What is the penalty for sin?â€, “What is forgiveness of debt vs payment of debt,†“What does the Bible itself say that Jesus ‘paid’?â€, and, “What is the meaning of the scriptural term, ‘atonement’?†aka, “What is the atonement about? What is the big picture of redemption?â€As far as the major historic atonement models that I have personally found most persuasive scripturally and logically, I would say that some form of the Christus Victor (CV) model, in which Christ’s victory over sin, death, and Satan effects deliverance for the believer, seems to have the most clear scriptural support of all. That said, as is true with any metaphor, if pressed too far into a literalistic meaning, such as the idea that God literally made a deal with the Devil and paid him off, the concept becomes an absurdity. The point of the terms, “redemption,†“ransom,†“deliver,†etc., is that Christ’s death, burial and resurrection (the gospel), effects freedom from the dominion of sin and Satan for all who believe, they being delivered thereby from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of His beloved Son, as Col 1:13says for example. I also find the governmental view to have very good explanatory power especially with regard to the issues of God’s pardon/forgiveness, the Law, and how God can be both just and the justifier of the believer, as Rom. 3:21-31 speaks concerning. One aspect of the atonement of Christ which I find to be included in the previous two views I mentioned, but which merits far more emphasis than it seems to have nowadays, is the cleansing or expiatory aspect. It is not as if God just wanted a legal or financial solution to the problem of our sins. He desired a truly holy, sanctified people, and the only means of that sanctification/cleansing is by the truth, the blood and the Spirit (saving work) of Jesus Christ. On the CV view, Aulen’s _Christus Victor_ is essential reading. On the Governmental view, Barnes is excellent: http://www.gospeltruth.net/Barnes_atonement/barnesindex.htmas is Miley: http://www.gospeltruth.net/miley/mileyatonementindex.htmFor the cleansing aspect, and for an excellent, relatively brief critique of the penal sub and Anselmian views, Waldenstrom would be the first recommendation I would make: http://www.revivaltheology.net/8_mgt/reconcil.html
.brad, you forgot the law of sin and death Romans 8:2which all the verses you describe r speaking of except the two wives in Gal and I’ve already explained that to you in another threadThis is a good thread, I hope u stick to it & not go off on Side Tracks. But I didn’t tell you to try to use New Testament to Define The Binding of Laws, I told you to pull out the Laws in the Torah, the Old Testament and show me they r binding 😉. U know what I said ðŸ˜________________Ps 122:6
The 613 old covenant laws are the Romans 8:2law of sin and death.
I c ur not ready to do this yet brad, I thought for sure u would have found some Laws in the Torah that r binding by now. Get dave & james to help u, james has a great insight to Jewish things, he could help u out 😉ShabBAT Shaloooooooom ðŸ˜________________Ps 122:6
There are indeed some works of the flesh we abstain from under the New Covenant that were also forbidden under the Law of Moses. Paul lists them in Galatians. But these similarities are incidental. We are not saved because we abstain from these things. Rather, the grace that saves us teaches us to deny those ungodly and worldly lusts through the indwelling power of the Spirit. I can also see some similarities between the Articles of Confederation and the current Constitution, but I do not cite the AoC as a law that I am under________________
What OT laws are binding? The answer is …
What OT laws are binding? The answer is whatever Jesus and the Apostles gave us as commandments in the New Testament.
There are indeed some works of the flesh we abstain from under the New Covenant that were also forbidden under the Law of Moses. Paul lists them in Galatians. But these similarities are incidental. We are not saved because we abstain from these things. Rather, the grace that saves us teaches us to deny those ungodly and worldly lusts through the indwelling power of the Spirit. I can also see some similarities between the Articles of Confederation nd the current Constitution, but I do not cite the AoC as a law that I am under. Ok skeptic, ur right about the Constitution, I was going to use that at some point but now I don’t have to LOL. & as I have always said the Law will not save you, we keep G-d’s Laws because we’re saved. & In Messiah Y’shua, when we sin (breaking His Laws) it’s His Grace that covers & forgives. Grace & Law go together, you can’t have one without the other you can’t have Grace without law you can’t have love without GraceShabBAT Shalo________________Ps 122:6
& Which r those. Please, show me what Y’shua said against the Torah/Law in the N________________Ps 122:6
No brad, Jews & gentiles were there & the giving of the Torah/Law Ex 12:38. And I already explained to you Galatians 4. So your view is G-d gave the Jews after took them out of slavery a bunch of Laws to bind them down and put them in bondage, is that right, that’s how you see G-d?Now pull some Laws for the Jews, and show me why the bondag________________Ps 122:6
No brad, Jews & gentiles were there & the giving of the Torah/Law Ex 12:38. And I already explained to you Galatians 4. So your view is G-d gave the Jews after took them out of slavery a bunch of Laws to bind them down and put them in bondage, is that right, that’s how you see G-d?Now pull some Laws for the Jews, and show me why the bondage The Law was simply an impossible standard.The Law was simply an unbearable yoke.Because of our inability to keep it, the was was weak and useless to make anyone perfect.
& Which r those. Please, show me what Y’shua said against the Torah/Law in the NT Matthew 241 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?†he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.†3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,†they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?â€No Temple, no altar, no Holy of Holies, no morning sacrifice, no evening sacrifice, no table and bread, no lamp, no oil no light, no priesthood or levites , no feast, no prayers and no need for going to Jerusalem to be saved.Jesus did not come to bring us under the Law or to lead us to the Law. The Jews were a chosen people to provide the Messiah for the world, the Messiah did not come to make us all Jews. It took the destruction of the Temple (and Jerusalem), which was God’s will, to demonstrate that Christianity is not just an add-on to the Law and Jewish culture. Some remain unconvinced to this day. As a nation, the Jews rejected the Messiah. Why, because God allowed them to be spiritually blind (as Paul said, to this day they have the covering of Moses over their eyes). I will not become as Jesus said, the blind leading the blind and I will not be bound by the words of a want-to-be-playing-at-being-jewish who is no jew. There is only one who can save, and it ain’t Moses. Is that clear enough.
No brad, Jews & gentiles were there & the giving of the Torah/Law Ex 12:38. And I already explained to you Galatians 4. So your view is G-d gave the Jews after took them out of slavery a bunch of Laws to bind them down and put them in bondage, is that right, that’s how you see G-d?Now pull some Laws for the Jews, and show me why the bondage The Law was simply an impossible standard.The Law was simply an unbearable yoke.Because of our inability to keep it, the was was weak and useless to make anyone perfect.
& Which r those. Please, show me what Y’shua said against the Torah/Law in the NT Matthew 241 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?†he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.†3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,†they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?â€No Temple, no altar, no Holy of Holies, no morning sacrifice, no evening sacrifice, no table and bread, no lamp, no oil no light, no priesthood or levites , no feast, no prayers and no need for going to Jerusalem to be saved.Jesus did not come to bring us under the Law or to lead us to the Law. The Jews were a chosen people to provide the Messiah for the world, the Messiah did not come to make us all Jews. It took the destruction of the Temple (and Jerusalem), which was God’s will, to demonstrate that Christianity is not just an add-on to the Law and Jewish culture. Some remain unconvinced to this day. As a nation, the Jews rejected the Messiah. Why, because God allowed them to be spiritually blind (as Paul said, to this day they have the covering of Moses over their eyes). I will not become as Jesus said, the blind leading the blind and I will not be bound by the words of a want-to-be-playing-at-being-jewish who is no jew. There is only one who can save, and it ain’t Moses. Is that clear enough.Mat Do people here struggle from anti-Semitism or something? Matt you have no idea what you’re talking about I’m sorry this is totally incorrect. The destruction of the temple is because they defiled it, think about that in the New Testament, you understand what I’m sayingThe destruction of the Temple, was not the destruction of the Law, Feasts, Sabbath, etc….________________Ps 122:6
I’m not teaching replacement theology. I’m teaching placement theology. All, Jew and Gentile, were placed in Christ at the cross. Those who believe, receive new life born in them through this message, this incorruptible seed.There are those who call themselves Jews because they are born in a certain family in the flesh, but they are not Jews.John 8:39They answered and said to Him, “
I’m not teaching replacement theology. I’m teaching placement theology. All, Jew and Gentile, were placed in Christ at the cross. Those who believe, receive new life born in them through this message, this incorruptible seed.There are those who call themselves Jews because they are born in a certain family in the flesh, but they are not Jews.John 8:39They answered and said to Him, “
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& Which r those. Please, show me what Y’shua said against the Torah/Law in the NT Matthew 241 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?†he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.†3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,†they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?â€No Temple, no altar, no Holy of Holies, no morning sacrifice, no evening sacrifice, no table and bread, no lamp, no oil no light, no priesthood or levites , no feast, no prayers and no need for going to Jerusalem to be saved.Jesus did not come to bring us under the Law or to lead us to the Law. The Jews were a chosen people to provide the Messiah for the world, the Messiah did not come to make us all Jews. It took the destruction of the Temple (and Jerusalem), which was God’s will, to demonstrate that Christianity is not just an add-on to the Law and Jewish culture. Some remain unconvinced to this day. As a nation, the Jews rejected the Messiah. Why, because God allowed them to be spiritually blind (as Paul said, to this day they have the covering of Moses over their eyes). I will not become as Jesus said, the blind leading the blind and I will not be bound by the words of a want-to-be-playing-at-being-jewish who is no jew. There is only one who can save, and it ain’t Moses. Is that clear enough.Mat
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Excellent summation Brad. To answer your question,no, there is no blessing that comes from keeping the law. Anyone who attempts to live under the law is cursed,not blessed, because they cannot keep every one of them.The law was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ,a schoolmaster no longer needed________________“Hell will be filled with people that didn’t cuss, didn’t drink, and may even have been baptized. Why? Because none of those things makes someone a Christian.”
Don’t u guys understand that G-d, our Creator, our Savior wrote the Torah/Law/Instructions that His people would be Holy/Set apart from the world living by different standards of life? Deut 4:8; what are the nation is so great as to have such Righteous Decrees & Laws as this Body of Laws I Am setting before u this day 😗. Do u guys tithe? Why? That’s in the Law, Instructions in Lev. Deut 29:9; therefore keep all the Words of this Covenant and do them that you shall prosper in ALL that you doPs 1:1-3…. & There r just so many others, y’all want to prosper? keep His Torah________________Ps 122:6
& ur absolutely right brad, Deut 28does have a long list of curses for not keeping his Commandments. So who is right, you or G-d I’ve heard multiple preachers preach for prosperity and blessings they always used Deuteronomy 28:1-14and they stop there. The blessings come when you keep His Commandments, & if u don’t….Num 23:19; He’s not a man that He should lie? Ps 89:34; My Covenant I will not break, nor alter the thing that comes out of My lips.Brad you cannot use New Testament verses to describe the Old Testament, that’s like reading a book backwards read a book from finish to start do you? And you’ll never be able to understand the the New Covenant until you understand the first Covenan________________Ps 122:6
The real issue is not me reading backwards. It’s you not reading the book foward. There is no longer any Deut 28curse.
The real issue is not me reading backwards. It’s you not reading the book foward. There is no longer any Deut 28curse.
Very good. Then in 1 John 3:23he explains what those commandments are.1 John 3:21Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; 22 and whatever we ask we receive from Him,
The real issue is not me reading backwards. It’s you not reading the book foward. There is no longer any Deut 28curse.
Deut 30:19; I call Heaven and Earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you Life and death, Blessings and cursings…. A Blessing if we keep His Instructions, Laws, Torah & a curse if we do not, sins. I’ll use one of brad’s favorites in Gal 3:13; Messiah has redeemed us from the curse of the Law, being made a curse for us, for it is written curse it is everyone that hangs on a tree. Why was he hung on a tree (Deut 21:22) it was our sins, our lawlessness. He wasn’t hung on a tree for Torah, He was hung on the tree for mankind breaking His Torah, the curse of sin________________Ps 122:6
Do you not believe what Paul wrote? He was a Jew. He loved the Jews. He was perfect in terms of obeying the law. Why do you resist what God gave Paul, yet cling to what God gave Moses?I submit that you feel a need to belong…and what better group of people to belong to than Jews, right–God’s chosen people…who killed the prophets…who wanted Jesus dead…who were given wonderful promises, etc.They are just as messed up as ANY PEOPLE. God gives them wonderful things…and like the rest of mankind, they blew it time after time. But in your need to belong, you take on the weirdness of Judaism. Like thinking that God is somehow pleased or respected if you drop the o when you write G-d. Or that God is more pleased if we use only Hebrew words when speaking of spiritual things.
Do you not believe what Paul wrote? He was a Jew. He loved the Jews. He was perfect in terms of obeying the law. Why do you resist what God gave Paul, yet cling to what God gave Moses?I submit that you feel a need to belong…and what better group of people to belong to than Jews, right–God’s chosen people…who killed the prophets…who wanted Jesus dead…who were given wonderful promises, etc.They are just as messed up as ANY PEOPLE. God gives them wonderful things…and like the rest of mankind, they blew it time after time. But in your need to belong, you take on the weirdness of Judaism. Like thinking that God is somehow pleased or respected if you drop the o when you write G-d. Or that God is more pleased if we use only Hebrew words when speaking of spiritual things. If you are not careful, then, like the Jews, you will esteem your customs and traditions over the grace that God extends through His Son, Jesus. And you, like them, may be lost in a false religion (for any religion that does not accept Jesus and what He did for us is false…and will send you to hell as quick as being an atheist). 😇 Shabbat shalom Aaron, it’s good to see you again, I was hoping you would come back 😀. Now 🤔… Where do I start, do you believe exactly what Paul was saying about the Law, or was he speaking about the Jews law? They are opposite of each other. And see that’s the problem wherever you see Law you lump it as one. The Jews laws were traditions they placed over the Torah, Messiah speaks of this in Matthew chapter 15: 1-9. That they keep the traditions of men and not the Commandments of G-d. G-d did not give Paul different rulesWhy do you think they killed the prophets and Y’shua, have you ever asked yourself that? The stoning of Stephen is connected into to them tooI love Y’srael & I love the Jewish people just as I love Christians. I will speak to a Jewish person just as fast as I was speak to a Christian person just as fast as I speak to unsaved people. Which interesting, I just had a great conversation with an unsaved person this week and he received what I said with joy & it was lot easier people than here lol. He was an atheist and he wants to talk to me a lot more so I gave him my phone number & he was so happy.I will never take man’s traditions and put them above G-d’s Torah or G-d’s grace because I love G-d and I will keep His Commandments John 14:15Let me read you two passages out of this week’s Torah lesson which is Ex 25:1; God spoke to Moshe saying, speak to the children of Y’srael and let them take for Me a portion from every man whose heart motivates him you shall take my portion. That is not a command, that’s willingness. Vs 8; they shall make a sanctuary for me, so that I may dwell among them. Now that’s Command in the Torah, are our bodies the temple now, isn’t that the same thing G-d asks of us today? Or is that binding? Shabbat shalo________________Ps 122:6
& brad, you answer your own question with the title of this thread with the first example and Deut 28:1-13ðŸ˜. Vs 1-2; and it shall come to pass, IF you will hearken diligently unto the voice of the L-rd your G-d, to observe and to do all His Commandments which I Command you this day, that the L-rd your G-d will set you on high above all nations of the Earth. Vs 2 and ALL these Blessings shall come on you, and overtake you IF you will hearken unto the voice of the L-rd your G-d ðŸ˜________________Ps 122:6
delet________________
Yes, that’s what the Old Covenant says. Unfortunately, no one could keep all of those commands. Only Jesus fulfilled the Law and He is our righteousness. Now in Him we are blessed with every spiritual blessing in Heavenly places! Eph 1:3The old covenant says: If you can keep all the rules you’ll be blessed.The new covenant says: If you believe, you ARE blessed.Gal 3:9So then
Yes, that’s what the Old Covenant says. Unfortunately, no one could keep all of those commands. Only Jesus fulfilled the Law and He is our righteousness. Now in Him we are blessed with every spiritual blessing in Heavenly places! Eph 1:3The old covenant says: If you can keep all the rules you’ll be blessed.The new covenant says: If you believe, you ARE blessed.Gal 3:9So then
Jesus new commandment (to
Jesus new commandment (to
The true Jew, the true children of Abraham is the one who believes. That is the one who is grafted into Christ. I don’t have a problem with the laws written on my heart. The laws written on my heart minister life, freedom, faith, love and righteousness. They don’t minister sin, curses, condemnation and death. Why don’t you explain 2 Cor 3or Galatians 3or Galatians 4or Ephesians 3or Colossians 2or Romans 3or Romans 4or Romans 5or Romans 6or Romans 7or Romans 8or Hebrews 7or Hebrews 8or Hebrews 9or Hebrews 10________________I’m not saved because I’m good. I’m saved because He’s good!My website: http://www.bradfreeman.comMy blog: bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/
The true Jew, the true children of Abraham is the one who believes. That is the one who is grafted into Christ. I don’t have a problem with the laws written on my heart. The laws written on my heart minister life, freedom, faith, love and righteousness. They don’t minister sin, curses, condemnation and death. Why don’t you explain 2 Cor 3or Galatians 3or Galatians 4or Ephesians 3or Colossians 2or Romans 3or Romans 4or Romans 5or Romans 6or Romans 7or Romans 8or Hebrews 7or Hebrews 8or Hebrews 9or Hebrews 10? brad, you do have a problem with the laws cuz you don’t understand them. If you understood him you wouldn’t be saying all the stuff that you say now, & you wouldn’t be twisting Paul’s letters in your theology to make it work and it won’t, not ever. Wow that’s all you want me to interpret 🙄, yeah I’m not going to do that, I probably already have answering all ur questions ðŸ˜________________Ps 122:6
I don’t have any problem at all with the OT law when its used lawfully. However, the law is not for NT believers, it’s for those under the law.1 Tim 1:9
Me too. He’s started enough threads, he should be contained to those. Anyone interested can certainly respond instead of every topic getting hijacked. I think everyone’s had enough.Let’s do what Paul suggested in Galatians 5
In my opinion, we’re pretty much at the end of the road with his comments today.You never going to get it brad if you keep trying to understand the Old Testament with the new.
Sheepdog, I wish you could get it through your head, ain’t no body going up ‘cept us folk attached to the big boys! Soon as we a’low ’em Baptist in, you might b next! ________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
Most churches today don’t want an older man. If I suddenly decided to come out of retirement, I’d probably have to start a new work________________
Well for sure the OLD FOLK of this country know what Capitol Numbers are, they were around much before the ‘little numbers like
& james if ur wife is hidding her Jewishness, you haven’t properly conveyed who her Messiah is, she doesn’t see herself in a westernized Jesus. Same with the Jews around the world. Your wife should not be ashamed of who she is and who God made he________________Ps 122:6
Lol, james, you have no verses scripture tell me about myself in that. And it doesn’t matter if she doesn’t consider some Jewish she is. & Very sad she hides her Jewish identity, gee that sounds like history to me, I think I’ve heard that somewhere before. The reason why she can’t align with her Jewish identity because it’s not found in the churchAnd I’m not trying to be a Jew, & the faith is not about being Jewish, you got to stop bringing up that nonsense doesn’t work. Keeping G-d’s Feast and G-d Sabbath & G-ds Torah is not a Jewish thing, it’s a G-d thing, you know the King of the Jews, the G-d of Y’srael, Y’shua?And you don’t even know me, and you will never never never ever be able to convince Jew that their Messiah is Y’shua, read Rom 11:11. You do not look like, act like, or talk, or live like the Messiah they are waiting for.And please, I challenge you to find me The Binding Commandments that are in the Torah in a thread I have on the 613 Commandments of G-d there in the feature presentation section of here. I await them and look forward to this conversation and your scriptures concerning The Binding Laws in the Tora________________Ps 122:6
We can bury all the homosexuals we want?________________
He never gives up, you can say that for him.