I know a nice young man who is in discussions with some Oneness people. He has lots of questions. The Oneness people seem pretty entrenched and adamant. I can’t help wondering if their aim is persuasion, but I guess anyone would want to express their opinions.
It is longer than an essay, but worth the effort. Written by a pentecostal (AG) academic theologian for a lay audience.www.amazon.com/Trinity-Practically-Speaking-Frank-Macchia/dp/0830857753/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1468370077&sr=1-1
Re: Looking for a concise description of the doctrine of the Trinity
Why can’t both parties accept that both arguments have their strengths and weaknesses? Both affirm there are distinctions within the being of God. Both affirm the deity of Christ. Where they differ is on how they approach the distinctions within God’s being. But what usually happens is that both camps try to have debate instead of dialog often treating the other like they would a Mormon or JW________________
delet________________
http://www.amazon.com/Oneness-Pentecostals-Trinity-Gregory-Boyd-ebook/dp/B009LNH3X4/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1468370702&sr=8-2&keywords=trinity+and+oneness Sorry. The book simply is not accurate. Much of what he says about Oneness Pentecostals can be said about Trinitariam Pentecostals. I hope Bonnie will not use this book.
As you might have surmised, the nice young man is my son. As far as I know, he is not engaging in debates, just asking questions. The Oneness adherents have invited him to lunch a few times and have had long discussions with him. They attend our church and love the fellowship. They weren’t sure at first whether our church was Trinitarian, but when they asked in Sunday school, I and another person answered simultaneously that we are. After Sunday school, I mentioned that I didn’t think our pastor would be open to beliefs other than Trinitarianism, and the woman assured me that it wasn’t like she would be trying to teach that in our church.After one Sunday lunch my son had with them, I asked him what they talked about. He said, The Trinity. (for an hour)I said, What?! Are they trying to proselytize you?He grinned and said that she had told him, You better not tell your mom or she will think we are trying to proselytize you.So, yeah, I do wonder why they can’t just live and let live, but in fairness, my son said he was asking questions.My son is an easy going, fairly level headed kid. If he has a viewpoint, he will make his point and move on. I’ve not noticed him trying to persuade someone who doesn’t want to change his or her mind. And I can’t see him arguing about the nature of the Trinity.
Why can’t both parties accept that both arguments have their strengths and weaknesses? Both affirm there are distinctions within the being of God. Both affirm the deity of Christ. Where they differ is on how they approach the distinctions within God’s being. But what usually happens is that both camps try to have debate instead of dialog often treating the other like they would a Mormon or JW. I hope these Oneness folk are not trying to proselytize. That was more common (by a minority of stalwarts) in years past but is not so common any more. One word of advise though…..Please have your son stress to them that Trinitarians do believe that God is a singular
In my experience (which I admit is by no means necessarily universally representative, though I’m certainly not the only one who has experienced this), Oneness folks consider it their mission to convert trinitarians to their view, with most seeing trinitarianism as ‘idolatry’ and trinitarians as not even saved, but instead, three-god devils. Another thing they typically do is appeal to personal revelation ultimately, saying things like, You can’t get this by studying the Bible alone; the Spirit has to reveal it to you.
Why would I tell my son to stress to them anything?I’m not interested in telling my adult son what to say in a situation like this.
Why would I tell my son to stress to them anything?I’m not interested in telling my adult son what to say in a situation like this.Just not how we roll. I’m sorry. I thought it was your son you were trying to find info for on how to deal with these people. Since I am sort of a hybrid of the two camps, I thought perhaps my insights could be helpful. I humbly apologize if I was being presumptuous________________
The doctrine of the Trinity results from thoughtful reflection on the nature of the one true God as revealed in Scripture. Revealed as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, each having the attributes of personhood (mind, will and emotions), as well as interactivity amongst each other (The Son prays to the Father, the Father speaks to the Son, the Son speaks of the Spirit as another Comforter, whom the Father will send in my name, etc.), and yet the Scriptures plainly teach there is but one God. In Christian theology, this has historically been described by the word, trinity, which means a threefold unity, a three-in-one God. The Oneness view, in seeking to defend the unity of God against perceived tritheism, essentially negates the individual personhood of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Indeed, one thing Oneness folks most object to is the trinitarian phrase, One God in three persons, insisting instead upon saying, One God in three
You got the first half right (trying to find info for my son). And I specified in the op what kind of info.
I think where Trinitarians messed up is believing there was some sort of fellowship, dialog, exchange, loving relationship going on within the being of God from eternity past. Even when I was in the AoG I never believed that. God is complete within himself and requires no human style communication or emotional exchange from within himself or from outside sources. What has created this false perception of God is the exchange we see from the
Why can’t both parties accept that both arguments have their strengths and weaknesses? Both affirm there are distinctions within the being of God. Both affirm the deity of Christ. Where they differ is on how they approach the distinctions within God’s being. But what usually happens is that both camps try to have debate instead of dialog often treating the other like they would a Mormon or JW.
As a leader in the AG (not AoG), I feel compelled to respond as our fellowship has been somewhat maligned in this thread by some who have not characterized our beliefs correctly. In addition, as our Fellowship was ripped apart by the Oneness heresy back in the 20’s and 30’s and I have studied the case in some depth. You must understand that to the AG oneness churches (UPC) et al are considered or up until quite recently have been considered a cult, similar to Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses. I would be hesitant to have my child involved in a cult, good people notwithstanding. Can’t we all get along seems to be the cry of the day but just ask OTCP if doctrine matters. It does. Btw the AG does not teach God the Father is a body. Our articles of faith quite clearly delineate our beliefs, I post them here for clarity as they were written in response to the OneNess issue in the first place.2. The One True GodThe one true God has revealed Himself as the eternally self-existent I AM, the Creator of heaven and earth and the Redeemer of mankind. He has further revealed Himself as embodying the principles of relationship and association as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.Deuteronomy 6:4[KJV/NIV]Isaiah 43:10,11 [KJV/NIV]Matthew 28:19[KJV/NIV]Luke 3:22[KJV/NIV]The Adorable Godheada. Terms DefinedThe terms Trinity and persons as related to the Godhead, while not found in the Scriptures, are words in harmony with Scripture, whereby we may convey to others our immediate understanding of the doctrine of Christ respecting the Being of God, as distinguished from gods many and lords many. We therefore may speak with propriety of the Lord our God who is One Lord, as a trinity or as one Being of three persons, and still be absolutely scriptural.Matthew 28:19[KJV/NIV]2 Corinthians 13:14[KJV/NIV]John 14:16-17[KJV/NIV]b. Distinction and Relationship in the GodheadChrist taught a distinction of Persons in the Godhead which He expressed in specific terms of relationship, as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but that this distinction and relationship, as to its mode is inscrutable and incomprehensible, because unexplained.Luke 1:35[KJV/NIV]1 Corinthians 1:24[KJV/NIV]Matthew 11:25-27[KJV/NIV]Matthew 28:19[KJV/NIV]2 Corinthians 13:14[KJV/NIV]1 John 1:3-4[KJV/NIV])c. Unity of the One Being of Father, Son and Holy SpiritAccordingly, therefore, there is that in the Father which constitutes him the Father and not the Son; there is that in the Son which constitutes Him the Son and not the Father; and there is that in the Holy Spirit which constitutes Him the Holy Spirit and not either the Father or the Son. Wherefore the Father is the Begetter, the Son is the Begotten, and the Holy Spirit is the one proceeding from the Father and the Son. Therefore, because these three persons in the Godhead are in a state of unity, there is but one Lord God Almighty and His name one.John 1:18[KJV/NIV]John 15:26[KJV/NIV]John 17:11[KJV/NIV]John 17:21[KJV/NIV]Zechariah 14:9[KJV/NIV]d. Identity and Cooperation in the GodheadThe Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are never identical as to Person; nor confused as to relation; nor divided in respect to the Godhead; nor opposed as to cooperation. The Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son as to relationship. The Son is with the Father and the Father is with the Son, as to fellowship. The Father is not from the Son, but the Son is from the Father, as to authority. The Holy Spirit is from the Father and the Son proceeding, as to nature, relationship, cooperation and authority. Hence, neither Person in the Godhead either exists or works separately or independently of the others.John 5:17-30[KJV/NIV]John 5:32[KJV/NIV]John 5:37[KJV/NIV]John 8:17,18 [KJV/NIV]e. The Title, Lord Jesus ChristThe appellation, Lord Jesus Christ, is a proper name. It is never applied in the New Testament, either to the Father or to the Holy Spirit. It therefore belongs exclusively to the Son of God.Romans 1:1-3[KJV/NIV]2 John 1:3[KJV/NIVf. The Lord Jesus Christ, God with UsThe Lord Jesus Christ, as to His divine and eternal nature, is the proper and only Begotten of the Father, but as to His human nature, He is the proper Son of Man. He is therefore, acknowledged to be both God and man; who because He is God and man is Immanuel, God with us.Matthew 1:23[KJV/NIV]1 John 4:2[KJV/NIV]1 John 4:10[KJV/NIV]1 John 4:14[KJV/NIV]Revelation 1:13[KJV/NIV]Revelation 1:17[KJV/NIV]g. The Title, Son of GodSince the name Immanuel embraces both God and man in the one Person, our Lord Jesus Christ, it follows that the title, Son of God, describes His proper deity, and the title, Son of Man, His proper humanity. Therefore, the title Son of God, belongs to the order of eternity, and the title, Son of Man, to the order of time.Matthew 1:21-23[KJV/NIV]2 John 1:3[KJV/NIV]1 John 3:8[KJV/NIV]Hebrews 7:3[KJV/NIV]Hebrews 1:1-13[KJV/NIV]h. Transgression of the Doctrine of ChristWherefore, it is a transgression of the Doctrine of Christ to say that Jesus Christ derived the title, Son of God, solely from the fact of the incarnation, or because of His relation to the economy of redemption. Therefore, to deny that the Father is a real and eternal Father, and that the Son is a real and eternal Son, is a denial of the distinction and relationship in the Being of God; a denial of the Father, and the Son; and a displacement of the truth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.2 John 1:9[KJV/NIV]John 1:1[KJV/NIV]John 1:2[KJV/NIV]John 1:14[KJV/NIV]John 1:18[KJV/NIV]John 1:29[KJV/NIV]John 1:49[KJV/NIV]1 John 2:22,23 [KJV/NIV]1 John 4:1-5[KJV/NIV]Hebrews 12:2[KJV/NIV]i. Exaltation of Jesus Christ as LordThe Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, having by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; angels and principalities and powers having been made subject unto Him. And having been made both Lord and Christ, He sent the Holy Spirit that we, in the name of Jesus, might bow our knees and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father until the end, when the Son shall become subject to the Father that God may be all in all.Hebrews 1:3[KJV/NIV]1 Peter 3:22[KJV/NIV]Acts 2:32-36[KJV/NIV]Romans 14:11[KJV/NIV]1 Corinthians 15:24-28[KJV/NIV]j. Equal Honor to the Father and to the SonWherefore, since the Father has delivered all judgment unto the Son, it is not only the express duty of all in heaven and on earth to bow the knee, but it is an unspeakable joy in the Holy Spirit to ascribe unto the Son all the attributes of Deity, and to give Him all honor and the glory contained in all the names and titles of the Godhead except those which express relationship (see Distinction and Relationship in the Godhead, Unity of the One Being of Father, Son and Holy Spirit , and Identity and Cooperation in the Godhead) and thus honor the Son even as we honor the Father.John 5:22,23 [KJV/NIV]1 Peter 1:8[KJV/NIV]Revelation 5:6-14[KJV/NIV]Philippians 2:8,9 [KJV/NIV]Revelation 7:9-10[KJV/NIV]Revelation 4:8-11[KJV/NIV](TOP)3. The Deity of the Lord Jesus ChristThe Lord Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God. The Scriptures declare:His virgin birth,Matthew 1:23[KJV/NIV]Luke 1:31[KJV/NIV]Luke 1:35[KJV/NIV]His sinless life,Hebrews 7:26[KJV/NIV]1 Peter 2:22[KJV/NIV]His miracles,Acts 2:22[KJV/NIV]Acts 10:38[KJV/NIV]His substitutionary work on the cross,1 Corinthians 15:3[KJV/NIV]2 Corinthians 5:21[KJV/NIV]His bodily resurrection from the dead,Matthew 28:6[KJV/NIV]Luke 24:39[KJV/NIV]1 Corinthians 15:4[KJV/NIV]His exaltation to the right hand of God.Acts 1:9[KJV/NIV]Acts 1:11[KJV/NIV]Acts 2:33[KJV/NIV]Philippians 2:9-11[KJV/NIV]Hebrews 1:3
I’m not sure how you feel the AG was falsely maligned in any way. Can you be more specific, please? And like you, I was once one of those AG ministers who was very vocal in my dismissal of the Oneness Pentecostal movement as nothing more than a cult. I even went so far as to speculate that nobody was really receiving the Spirit baptism in those churches. My own years of serious study and interaction with those in their ranks lead me to a different conclusion. That is not to say I do not find great error within their ranks. But error is not always synonymous with cultism.Furthermore, if I stated that the AG said that God the Father was a body, I was mistaken. What I meant to say was that an official AG publication which I read just days ago emphatically stated that
If we go with the traditional statement of the trinity, it is seeming conflict with numerous scriptures.If we go with non-traditional statements of the trinity (which I better align with), they, too, have issues.Pretty much all we can really say–at least without conflict from the scriptures–is that there is ONE GOD…and Jesus is His Only Son…and that both are utterly divine (and the Holy Spirit fits into this in some way also).Now, we already believe that, don’t we? The problem is when we try to make it fit with the standard notion of the trinity. That’s when we have to start explaining this and that verse, that is seemingly so at odds with what is going on (e.g., that Jesus HAS a God, that Jesus will become Subject to God, etc.).The doctrine of the trinity is not a heaven or hell issue (unless you think aposotolic believers are going to hell), so I don’t know why we pin so much on it, when we could and should simply say, Anything beyond the words of the scriptures is conjecture–and cannot be considered absolute doctrine.
Good post.What led me to the conclusion that God is not as fretful of this Godhead issue as we are was the witness of the Spirit I saw in the lives of Oneness believers. As a Trinitarian, this rocked my theological ship. I did not see this witness of the Spirit in Mormons or JW’s simply because they do not even view the atonement and regeneration as we do. But God was testifying before my very eyes that he was claiming these Oneness heretics as his own! But Oneness stalwarts who believe all Trinitarians are lost must ask themselves as well why God bears witness to Trinitarians giving them the like precious gift which the Jerusalem council referred to as repentance unto life(Acts 11:18). Spiritual pride in both camps hinders from them from opening their minds and hearts to these types of questions________________