Church of God General Assembly, Nashville 2016
“….all ordained ministers 25 years of age and older and ordained bishops…”
Rationale: “This motion seeks to affirm the value of a new generation of ministers by giving them voice and vote in shaping the future mission, vision, and core values of the Church of God. It also expands the International General Council to include ordained women, whose anointed insights and spiritual discernment are much needed in addressing the growing complexity of fulfilling the Great Commission….”
HISTORICAL NOTES:
GENERAL ASSEMBLY AGENDA 2012: ITEM 15 WOMEN IN MINISTRY
One item that was not fully resolved at the 2012 General Assembly Agenda in Orlando was WOMEN in MINISTRY. Item 15 expressed a general desire to permit women to be fully represented in all roles within the church. It was NOT a gender issue, but rather a leadership one – an issue of ministry and of responsibility, if you will. Coming from a long line of women ministers in the churches, one cannot be impartial to the issues involved in this item. As Bishop Nick Park wrote:
The removal of these outdated and senseless gender restrictions, in my opinion, makes such obvious good sense that there’s not much more I can say on the subject. Needless to say, I will be voting for this item, even though it comes about 100 years too late!
COMMENTS ON THE 2014 CHURCH OF GOD AGENDA BY DON WARRINGTON (The Missing Item from the Agenda)
Dr. Tony Richie: 75th CHURCH OF GOD INTERNATIONAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY: HISTORIC ENCOUNTERS…
Another concern of mine is that the entire process of the Church of God International General Assembly is male dominated. One sister, a credentialed minister attending General Assembly for the first time this session, told me that she’d never before fully realized the significance of the current Church of God policy of not allowing women to be bishops. Something about seeing all of those men bunched together down on the General Council floor with the women scattered around the edges on the other side of the short curtained barrier drives home the dividing wall between us. Having Rev. Barnett preach to the General Assembly probably speaks volumes about the fervent desire of the Church of God to find ways to include female ministers at the highest levels. I wholeheartedly applaud this action. However, such measures must not minimize our continuing commitment to free our women to serve without imposing unfair restrictions…. An authentically Pentecostal ecclesiology affirms the divine calling and employs the spiritual gifts of all the members of the body, and the whole body is better off because of it.
Dr. Kenneth J. Archer: A Pentecostal egalitarian view of humanity does not diminish, dilute, or demote maleness or femaleness but instead properly elevates both to mutual dignity, honor and love through mutual submission and service as individual followers of Jesus properly image the Social Trinity relationally in community.
Dr. Donald Dayton: “This church hosted the Seneca Falls Women’s Rights Convention of 1848 (which first called for women’s suffrage), participated in the ordination of Congregationalist Antoinette Brown, the first woman to be ordained (founder Luther Lee preached the ordination sermon) and originally founded Wheaton College-though in recent years the church has been identified as a “holiness church” and since then has been incorporated into the fundamentalist/evangelical tradition.”
Lee Theology Department Statement on… Women in Ministry | “Statement on Women in Ministry”
“The Department of Theology supports the full participation of women in all vocations of the church. We affirm that God the Father incorporates persons into the body of his Son Jesus Christ and pours out the Holy Spirit upon them without discriminating according to their sex. We affirm that God calls women to every activity, office, and level of ordination in the church. We both renounce any restrictions on the ministry of women based solely on their sex and commit ourselves to the removal of any such restrictions. Finally, we strive to provide a learning atmosphere in which women can find their voices and discern, understand, and pursue their many indispensable vocations.”
Christopher Stephenson Before I begin, I want to stress that the following comments are my own. I make no attempt to speak on behalf of any of my departmental colleagues. The Statement speaks for the Department; I now speak only for myself. Thank you to everyone who read the statement. That is the sole reason that I shared it–for it to be read. I see little value in crafting a statement like this if no one knows that it exists. The Statement was adopted by the Department of Theology–not any other department(s), not the entire School of Religion, not Lee as an institution. If the Statement frustrates you, please do not spread your frustration around to others unnecessarily. : ) It is a Department of Theology Statement. This is a theological issue. The Statement neither mentions by name nor is directed to any single denomination or church tradition, including the Church of God. To assume that the statement relates only to the Church of God is to assume that the Church of God is the only church tradition with which the Department is concerned. That would be to assume too much. Such restrictions are undesirable in every church tradition in which they exist, not only the Church of God. At the same time, I choose to believe that the leaders of the Church of God value the insights of the professional theologians at one of its premier academic institutions. While the Statement is not directed to these leaders, I hope that it can somehow be of benefit to them. Perhaps it could encourage those who agree with it and give those who do not agree something to consider further. The Statement speaks about the Department, its stance on this issue, and its commitment to try to bring change. It neither makes demands of anyone else nor calls upon anyone else to do anything nor criticizes anyone for anything done or not done on this front to this point. To the extent that the Statement does apply to the Church of God–for it is one of the churches with such restrictions–the Statement is not a stance against the Church of God but a stance *from within it.* There are twelve full-time members of the Department. By my count:
–Ten regularly attend a local Church of God congregation–I am one of them. –Nine are members of the Church of God–I am one of them. –Six are credentialed Church of God ministers–I am one of them. (And my monthly reports are up to date. : ) –Five are ordained bishops–I am one of them. (There would be one more if she were eligible!) –One is a career missionary, married to a Church of God national/regional overseer.
“Renounce”–to reject something publicly–is the right word. I publicly reject the idea that these restrictions are adequate or desirable. With respect to the Church of God, the primary restriction in question is a matter of *polity,* not *doctrine.* It does not occur in the Declaration of Faith, Doctrinal Commitments, or Practical Commitments, but rather in the descriptions of the ministerial rank “ordained bishop.”
The International Executive Council, International General Council, and International General Assembly “renounce” aspects of Church of God polity every two years by proposing changes to it. Implicit in the mere creation of an agenda for the International General Council is a rejection of the idea that the polity is already perfect and that revisions do not need to be considered. The Statement renounces restrictions, not persons. It says nothing about the intellect, character, or sincerity of persons who support such restrictions. It refers only to the restrictions themselves.
The Statement does not indicate a refusal to abide by the restrictions as long as they are in place–as if anyone had the ability to “ordain women as bishops anyway” in spite of the restrictions. Of course, I abide by the restrictions. Yet, in the same breath I immediately say that I want the restrictions to disappear completely because they are not funded by what I consider to be the best theological insights on the matter. Remember from the 2014 General Assembly that I am required only to “adhere to” not necessarily “agree with” all matters of polity. : )
Anyone who might feel that renouncing this small set of restrictions amounts to renouncing the Church of God as a movement per se has a significantly narrower view than my own of the essence and significance of the Church of God, which could not possibly be exhausted by any single matter of polity such as this. I do not assume that my own experiences are universal, but most of the young people among the best and brightest in the Church of God with whom I have contact see these kinds of restrictions as an incentive to leave rather than an incentive to stay. Just one more reason that I want the restrictions to disappear yesterday.
As far as the timing of the Statement, the Department finalized it about a month ago. I did not investigate whether it had been publicized elsewhere before I shared it here, but I waited to share it here as long as I did because, frankly, I did not want to prompt some of the kinds of responses in the thread during Lent. I know that this is a contentious issue for some, and there are better ways to prepare to celebrate the Paschal Mystery than contention. I recall no mention whatsoever in our departmental conversations of any attempt to influence anything that may or may not be discussed at the 2016 General Assembly. As for myself, I submitted a formal request for the removal of the ordained bishop restriction to be placed on the 2016 agenda, in response to the International Executive Council’s invitation to make such requests. I hope that we have the opportunity to consider it in Nashville.
While I was typing most of these words, my older daughter (age four) awoke from sleep and came to where I was typing because she had not seen me all day due to my teaching responsibilities. As I hugged her tightly, I cried and prayed that she would have the strength to be faithful to the Church of God and that she would not grow up in a church that keeps her at arm’s length as it currently does her mother, who, along with me, has found the strength to be faithful to the Church of God anyway. I am a fifth-generation member of the Church of God, and I want both of my daughters to be the sixth.
Again, thank you to everyone who took the time to read the Statement. Please remember that this post is my own thoughts. To the extent that they pertain to the Church of God, they are grounded in my commitment to the Church of God. The fact that I want to see change is a sign of my engagement with and concern for the Church of God. I believe that critical commitment is more valuable than apathy or complacency. The Church of God and the Department of Theology need each other, and both are better together than they could ever be if they were apart.
Dr. Skip Jenkins Thanks to everyone who has read the Department of Theology’s (DoT) recently posted statement on women in ministry; I have appreciated reading the responses on the board.
That statement, which was crafted over a month ago during a department meeting wherein all full-time, ranked faculty of the DoT were present, was a revised version of a statement the DoT had adopted back in the fall of 2007. This revision was approved by the DoT on March 03, 2016—without dissenting voice—and it comes at the END of an intentional, three semester engagement with this issue among ourselves, our students and leaders in the Church of God, Lee’s sponsoring denomination. It started with a three part symposium on Women and Authority in the Church back in the Fall 2014. The first symposium investigated the role of women in the New Testament church, the church after the apostles and the medieval church. What we found was an ebb and flow within the history of the church regarding the ministerial freedom or restriction placed on women; that is, in some periods and in some places there were women who had official positions like men. In other places, not so much. The second symposium considered the question for the contemporary church, but was not limited to the Church of God because (a) the student constituency of Lee University spans multiple denominations and (b) the students being trained in the School of Religion are not solely from the Church of God (take, for instance, our Pentecostal students from the Assemblies of God: their denomination has NO restrictions on the ordination of women nor the positions they might hold in the denomination. In fact, a woman sits on the committee that is similar to the COG’s Council of 18!) Our third symposium that semester was specific to the Church of God, and the panel that night consisted of two denominational leaders and a full professor from the COG’s Pentecostal Theological Seminary.
I think that I need to spend a moment to talk about that third symposium because the panel spoke about the ebb and flow of women’s authority, position and credentialing in the COG. A series of decisions were made from 1909-1925 that increasingly circumscribed the role of women, delimiting their functions within the church, specifically in governance AND “sacerdotal” functions (that is, performance of baptisms, communion, marriages, etc). Prior to 1925 women were allowed to do water baptisms, communion, marriages, etc—even if it was not normative—but the 1925 General Assembly (GA) decided to remove “sacerdotal rights” from women’s ministerial duties. This decision was attributed to the influence of A.J. Tomlinson, who was considered the “pastor of the church” as the general overseer. Around 1940, the COG changed the wording of its levels of credentialing so that only men could be called “licensed ministers,” and only licensed and ordained ministers could perform the sacerdotal functions. It remained this way until 1990, when women were permitted to attain the level of “licensed minister,” and thus once again were authorized by the church to perform the ordinances and officiate weddings, but they could not become an “ordained minister.” What did not come out in that symposium or the Q&A following it was this: a) 1992, women were granted the right to speak on the GA floor; (b) 2000, a call was made “from the field” to alter the wording of the credentials such that the second level, licensed minister, became an ordained minister and the third level became ordained bishop, this latter level women were not permitted to attain; (c) 2006, women began to be officially appointed as missionaries rather than simply acting under the “covering” of a husband; (d) 2010, the GA decided women could serve on Pastor’s Councils, which since the 1960s had been limited to only males; (e) and finally, in 2011, Emma Sue Web was appointed as a district overseer in California by the state overseer!
Now, back to the main narrative of the DoT’s three semester engagement on this issue. In November 2015, the SOR invited Sandra Kay Williams to be the keynote speaker at our Homecoming Alum breakfast. In that speech, she told her story (and those of other women she knows) of ministerial marginalization because of womanhood, and she pleaded for a revisiting of the polity that restricts women to full credentialing in the COG. Not 30 minutes later, after a lengthy Skype interview with Margaret Gaines, a long-time COG missionary and this year’s recipient of the SOR’s Alum of the Year award, I—along with over 100 other people—watched as the General Overseer of the COG publicly apologized to Margaret for the way the denomination treated her (and at times hampered her ability to minister). It was a righteous moment, and one that I will never forget—it was when I knew that this denomination was being led by a holy person, Mark Williams.
The construction of the statement was placed on the DoT’s agenda in January 2016, but was tabled until March because of other, institutional responsibilities that took the entirety of the January and February meetings. The delay in its posting to the DoT’s FB page was a miscommunication between me and the department secretary—there was no other reason for its tardiness, nor was there some strategic plan for its posting “on that day.” Now, some responses to the statement see us as “drawing battle lines,” or “being at odds” with the denomination, or even as “renouncing the bible.” Truthfully, those kinds of posts surprised me. First, while I admit that the word “renounce” may sound harsh, we meant it in the strictest, grammatical sense of the word, namely, to reject something publicly. Since statements of the type we posted are often formulated with concise wording, we chose a word (renounce) that could be elongated to this idea: “we announce in public that the DoT rejects, as biblically or theologically necessary, the restrictions still placed on women’s credentialing or judicial functions.” Chris Thomas, an ordained bishop in the COG and a professor at the Pentecostal Theological Seminary, published an essay in the book, Toward a facebook of Preaching (chp 6), in which he explored the biblical texts surrounding this topic, determining that restrictions on women are not biblically necessary. My own colleague in the DoT wrote an essay in that same book wherein she argued that being “Made in the Image of God (Gen 1:26-27),” coupled with Acts 2 and the Day of Pentecost, provide a theological justification for women preachers and the removal of all credentialing restrictions. Thus, our “renouncing” of restrictions is not a rejection of the bible nor its authority in our lives or its foundational place in our theology.
Secondly, we posted a “statement,” not a declaration or a resolution. So, rather than imagine ourselves as “drawing battle lines” for war, we were engaging in a conversation. Think about this: a true conversation between people only occurs when a series of statements are made that illicit response and dialogue. The DoT is talking, we are discussing; we publicized this to invite more conversation partners and to move our talking outside the “ivory tower” of the academic environment. What surprised me the most was the supposition from some respondents that GA decisions are inviolable and unalterable, and therefore undiscussable. But this is not the impression that I get when I read the Minutes of the first few GAs. They did not see themselves as setting up laws that were timelessly binding because only Christ was the Law Giver who had such authority. Rather, they gathered to interpret and apply scriptures in their current, historical setting under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. In fact, a motto of those first GAs was, “Walk in the Light as Light is shed on our path.” Early on, Tomlinson would say things like, “This is what we have done in the past, now let’s see if there is new light from the Holy Spirit for our present.” The idea was this: it is the church’s responsibility to continually return to its judicial or governing decisions to make sure that the Holy Spirit did not have something “new” to say to the Body.
Thirdly, insofar as the above is correct, the DoT does not see itself as “at odds” with the denomination. Our loyalty to the COG does not prohibit us from discussing issues. The faculty of the DoT are indeed loyal to the COG—the Statement is not a stance against the Church of God but a stance from within it. There are twelve full-time members of the Department, ten of whom regularly attend a local Church of God congregation—I am one of them. Nine are members of the Church of God—I am one of them. Six are credentialed Church of God ministers (I am not one of those because the TN board required my wife to be interviewed before I could be credentialed, but she refused to be interviewed because she was not going to subject herself to interrogation by a board that would not ordain her). Five are ordained bishops, and one of us is a career missionary, married to a Church of God national/regional overseer. We love this church, and we work to train students to minister within this church we so dearly love.
I am a fourth generation COG Pentecostal. My great-grandMOTHER was a founding member and first pastor of the Sandy Valley COG in Ohio (she was removed from the position when a man wanted the job, even though the church wanted her to remain pastor!). My great-grandfather was one of 13 charter members of the Canton Temple COG, in which church I was dedicated as a baby by Raymond Crowley—former General Overseer of the COG, and by which church I was sent off into ministry in April 1990. I went to Duke Divinity school after graduating Lee in 1994. At Duke I was forced to intellectually defend my Pentecostal heritage and practice (at least one time receiving a lower grade because of my refusal to recant my belief in the Holy Spirit’s continuing empowerment and present revelation to the church and Christians). And now I spend my days teaching, defending and modeling my Pentecostal spirituality and theology to hundreds of men and women in my classes each week at Lee University. And my DoT colleagues are no different than me, even if their personal stories are not identical to mine. Further, our disagreement over this polity issue is certainly not the same as a rejection of the theological commitments contained in the COG’s declaration of faith, which each of us subscribe to. In fact, 2.5 years ago the DoT sponsored a special service on Baptism in the Spirit where over 90 students came forward for prayer to receive the baptism (view the service athttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vE7oNKaVR98 ), 2 years ago we had a special healing service (view the service at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWKCsjXHcP0 ), last semester we had a special service on the end times (view at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJoU25AazOE ); plus, in the summer of 2015 we had a special service dedicated to sanctification and the pursuit of holiness, and this semester we had a breakfast and prayer service for those seeking spiritual gifts (over 50 students were present, at least half of them were NOT COG).
We are a faithful bunch who love the Lord, are dedicated to prayer and searching the scriptures, and who seek the guidance and power of the Holy Spirit each day for ourselves, our students and our denomination. Come and meet us; let us meet you, and let’s see what the Holy Spirit will do among us!
Re: OTCP…cessationist???
Re: OTCP…cessationist???
Dare I do it?
Should I bring up Lazarus again?Jesus purposefully delayed His going to Lazarus to give ample time for his close friend to die, knowing Lazarus’ resurrection would give God more glory than through his healing.There was design and purpose in Jesus’ not healing.James seems to suggest in some cases there is a correlation between sin and sickness, as does Paul (James 5:14-16; 1 Corinthians 11:27-30).For some, repentance might clear the way for healing.For Lazarus, however, no amount of prayer and intercession was sufficient. What ever ailment it was a sickness unto death (Like Elisha, 2 Kings 13:14, see also 1 John 5:16).Often, when someone dies and not healed, we might hear, He/she received their ultimate healing. That’s a nice expression but it isn’t true.Death is death. Life in the physical realm is over. The bodies are left to decay and return to dust. True, the dead receive relief from their sick bodies, but they aren’t healed. Surgeons may cut something out to prohibit further damage, but that isn’t healing. Remission is not renewal.Does God heal? Yes! Fourteen years after being diagnosed with Parkinson’s, a local pastor’s wife is healed. Twenty plus days without any symptoms. Prayer went up for 14 years and when the symptoms got worse, suddenly she woke up normal. Why does God heal some and not others? Why would He delay healing for 14 years? Why would Jesus not heal Lazarus? God knows and unless He reveals it to us, we don’t know.There was a young man dying from aids, having contracted the HIV in a blood transfusion. Prayer went up continuously for his healing while we watched the disease ravage his body. What was his sin – nothing? Tragic results of accidental medical procedure.Near the end of last days I was laying in his floor praying, while others were pleading the blood, claiming healing, etc. While on the floor the Lord spoke to my heart saying, Unless you can trust Me with your death, you can’t trust me with your life.Tommy died and a glorious memorial service honoring God was held.While pastoring the same church I witnessed God straighten the spine of a young teen girl suffering from severe curvature of the spine.There was a preacher visiting the sick in the hospital tell them if they had faith they’d be healed. Same preacher later died from cancer.Regardless of our circumstances the ultimate issue is our faithfulness – faithfulness through trials and temptations. Those who endure to the end shall be saved________________God-HonoringChrist-CenteredBible-BasedSpirit-Led
Aaron, Why didn’t God give you enough faith to be healed everytime?Why did he select some to have that faith – but not you?If it is His will every time – wouldn’t the commensurate amount of faith be given, as well?Or do you believe God is just theoretical only – he wants to heal every time – but he didn’t bother to give out enough faith everytime – so it is really just a semantic sleight of hand game that God is playing – wouldn’t you agree?ORDo you believe if you had done a certain amount of spiritual calisthenics – works if you will – you would have enough faith to be healed everytime? Are their works that you haven’t done – that you could have done – and that is why you don’t have enough faith – but lets not call it faith anymore – because it was really the WORKS that got you enough faith to be healed everytime?Let me know which camp you are in so I can address more fully________________
Aaron, Why didn’t God give you enough faith to be healed everytime?Why did he select some to have that faith – but not you?If it is His will every time – wouldn’t the commensurate amount of faith be given, as well?NBF, did the Apostles have that sort of faith? Or at least the sort of faith that saw far more miracles that we see? I think so. But if so, why would we imagine that it can’t be like that for us? I want God to increase my faith. I don’t have nearly enough. I do believe it is God’s will to heal every time. At the same time, I believe there are some things He will do eventually…that He will not do immediately.
Aaron,You are kind of all over the place with your beliefs here.But – based on your last sentences – you seem to believe we stop God from performing His will by not having enough faith. God has a Will to do something – but we are continually thwarting it by our lack of faith – as God has turned over ALL healings to us and the amount of faith we exercise (or don’t exercise) in every situation.Is that correct________________
No. I believe that God always retains His sovereignty. However, you will remember that on multiple occasions Jesus would say, O, ye of little faith. The implication was that THEY could have done whatever needed to be done.If God chooses to heal someone, I’m sure He can get it done it whether anyone prays for that person or not. My claim is NOT that God will ALWAYS heal. Rather, my claim is that is always God’s WILL to heal. We know that God is NOT WILLING that any should perish…yet some perish anyway. The context of this unwillingness is that God would save everyone…if everyone would come to Him for salvation.I believe it the same way for healing. God is WILLING to heal anyone would comes to him in faith. Does everyone come in faith? No. Do some get healed anyway? Sure. God is sovereign. But there are some things that don’t go out except by prayer and fasting (in other words, some sort of spiritual separation that causes one’s faith to build). I can’t tell you how many times I’ve prayed and someone would later say, I feel so much better, or something. And I’m thinking, That didn’t have anything to do with me–because the effectiveness of my prayers and faith were just about zero. And God has healed me at times just because, it seems.But NBF, don’t base your argument on MY paltry knowledge and beliefs about this matter. Base it on the Word of God. We have some ‘splaning to do when it comes to understanding why we are not seeing the same sort of effectiveness as the early church when it comes to healing. Was God more willing to heal then? Did they have greater faith? WHAT?THAT is what you have to confront–NOT my views on the matter. Again, even if I agreed that God wasn’t willing to heal everyone, we still have to try to understanding why, even if He didn’t heal everyone in NT times, He seemed to heal SO MANY MORE than we see!
Sorry Aaron.I know what God’s word says.I am trying to understand what you believe. I still don’t think you have clarified it to yourself – much less me.So now you say that God DOES have a will that supersedes man’s faith – you called it sovereignty – so if he wants someone to be healed – He heals them – no matter whether they had faith or not.Actually, I agree with that belief. I believe that is the type of healing that Christ demonstrated on earth – if he was ready to heal – he healed all of them – big faith, small faith, no faith – if he wanted to heal – he healed them all. Man never stopped him from accomplishing His will. After all He is Christ. One gets to be the potter – everyone else is the clay. How often does the clay tell the potter how he will be used?And while he chastised disciples for little faith – he usually then went and did the miracle they didn’t do, isn’t that right?While there was one city that he didn’t do many miracles because of their unbelief – that wasn’t normative for the gospels was it? Perhaps there was something else He was trying to teach there.So – if you believe he sovereignly does what He wills – then man doesn’t have the control of him by their faith. Man’s faith takes a back seat to his sovereignty – is that what you believe? Again trying to understand what you believe here. Have I got it right now________________
NBF, consider what would have happened if Jesus had not taken charge when the disciples could not handle the situation I mentioned. Do you think that if Jesus hadn’t decided to heal the boy, he would have been healed anyway? Of course not. AND YET if the disciples HAD HAD the right level of spiritual power, it is clearly implied that the boy would have been healed without having to call Jesus to take over (so to speak).
Only the practicing homosexual.The others – are like other sins – Jesus knows what’s in your heart – but the rest of us don’t. When giving the rules to be an elder – it was only the outward practices that were the criteria….the fruit, if you will________________
Only the practicing homosexual.The others – are like other sins – Jesus knows what’s in your heart – but the rest of us don’t. When giving the rules to be an elder – it was only the outward practices that were the criteria….the fruit, if you will. I agree with this from NBF, but would the same standard apply if the deceased were a know adulterer who never(outwardly)showed remorse or repentance? I believe it would be the same, but there are a lot of church folks who will lash out at homosexual sin but look the other away when it comes to adultery________________“Hell will be filled with people that didn’t cuss, didn’t drink, and may even have been baptized. Why? Because none of those things makes someone a Christian.”
Only the practicing homosexual.The others – are like other sins – Jesus knows what’s in your heart – but the rest of us don’t. When giving the rules to be an elder – it was only the outward practices that were the criteria….the fruit, if you will. I agree with buttrfli24,
Thanks for your replies. I didn’t mean to drop a topic and run, lol.So, are you saying that if the person is not actively engaged in a sexual relationship then they are in the clear? What about when Jesus taught about adultery of the heart? Or is there a difference between desiring something and actively thinking about it? And what about my question of two people who love each other romantically yet abstain from any physical relationship. Are they practicing or not________________
The Bible clearly forbids and condemns homosex acts, such as men having sex with men, or women having sex with women. With regard to desires, I think it is important to note that what Jesus forbids is the willful desire to have sex with a woman one is not married to. Note the willful action, “to lust after herâ€: “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman
according to Wikipedia he graduated Dartmouth, attended Oxford as a grad student but did not finish.
Thank goodness Wal-Mart still has some decency.G D Evil has no place on a sales rack at Wal-Mart for kids to see and start saying G D all over the place.Too bad Christians are once again out of touch with the times. The 80s cuteness of Stryper song titles is just as out of date as the COG convention songbooks________________
Hey, wait a minute. Are you saying Church of God Camp-Meeting songbooksare out-of-date, out of style?Maybe for you young whipper-snappers (whatever that means) is true, but for we, shall I say, more mature posters, those Convention Songbooks bring back fond memories .The first time I heard a COG Camp-Meeting choir sing from one of those books, my heart was incredibly blessed. It was like God leaned over and
Haha – I’m with you Doyle. I can play the COG Convention Classics CD they sold a few years back and remember how much I enjoyed them then – and now.However, my kids seem to leave the room when I turn them on..________________
Thanks for the ad Doyle, I haven’t bought a Stryper album in a while. I can’t wait to check it out. I for one both agree with Walmart’s decision, and don’t care that Stryper has the title they chose. Its been too many years since the first time they did this (To Hell With The Devil, Against The Law) for me to think for a minute that this song or album is somehow satanic or blasphemous as many curmudgeons shouted until their COPD wore them out back in the 80s. I took my kids to see them about 7 years ago and I was amazed that their musicianship and vocals had held up and if anything, improved over the years! Time to get my To Hell With The Devil t-shirt out of storage!
Where is RR, this could lead to dancing!However seriously, you are driving a Chevy and it breaks down on your way to a very important appointment.. YOu miss it and lose a job. Somebody may be tempted to say out loud: GD Chevrolet! Meaning in the mind Chevy is evil!Yeah it is a stretch, but I have to smile and add a ‘like’ to DaSheik’s comment. ________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
There’s a first time for everything, Chicago and I agree! Its a Dream Month miracle!
I know what John Todd said about Styper…. 😉😉😉This is also why grammar exists. I think if they just put a comma where they were supposed to the problem would be solved… silly metal headsGod, d____ evil. Problem solved
________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
So sad, your life quest________________Live an epiK life!Discover More…www.refocusing.orgA Mission in Formationwww.bluewaterinthekeys.com
Imma dreamer. Been one all my life. Never thought much of anyone who did not dream. Regardless of the month! ________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
Are they selling these at the Assembly this year?
Thank you for the response. You Doyle are the Julian Assange Wiki leaks of the COG. Thank you for your service. You have brought a level of openness more than anyone else could have ever thought a message board could accomplish. I remember the onslaught of leadership when they tried to come up with their censored version of Acts called Our Cog. They Even tried to market it to push acts out of the game. You stood strong thank you. I can not imagine the threats and legal actions could may have faced from the cog to silence you. I a few years ago upload a clip of video cleveland didn’t like. Guess what I was served with a digital take down order with a video clip that fell under fair use. I wonder how much that piece of legal action costed the church. If the insecurities of leadership would cause them to go after. 1:30 min video clip imagine what attention a full blown message board has brought. I have come to the conclusion if someone can get away with it they will do it. Sad we live in that age. Thank for your service we salute yo________________
How is ourcog doing________________
The official cog version of ourcog is not running anymore. Ourcog.org the independent version of our cog is still operatin________________
Re: Yes. There was an Assembly when two men were neck-and-neck in the voting.
Re: Yes. There was an Assembly when two men were neck-and-neck in the voting.
Doyle, could you send the ole timer this COG minister’s contact info so this news story can be corroborated? If the Russians hacked this General Assembly election, hey, we need to have a investigation. . I heard the same story. From another minister. So Doyle didn’t just coming up with this instance… otcp this has been questioned for a while. Also with the fear of retaliation from those in power Frank Culpepper probably just did what he knew to do to protect his family and future by backing down from a fight he knew would be hard to win. It would not have gone over well to ask for a recount. The cog was too authoritarian back then________________
If that was their intent, I don’t think they would have invited me and Tom Sterbens. I think Travis may have been there along with Jonathan Martin too. If the intent was to push Acts out, they invited the wrong people. Which – proves the point. OURCOG is dead. Acts lives. Guess they should have cut you guys out________________
Very poor taste…
…when it has obviously been many decades and all parties involved are no longer on this earth…There is one thing to tell a story without names in a general way to illustrate a close vote.It is another thing to question the integrity of a man who just happened to be an important part of the story during a very dark time in our movement’s history when Dr. White was removed from office.This website got it’s strength and popularity through Doyle’s leadership 20 years ago after the White removal.Now you are sharing a story that insinuates wrong-doing…a story that cannot be proven because it happened so long ago…against a man who was on the other side of some of the darkest days in our history.
I don’t know dr White. This is opinion. So let me ask a question because what I know has been told to me. If the people voted him in what right does an executive comitee/council have in impeaching someone Unless it was for moral reasons? I don’t think there were any moral reasons so someone had a hidden agenda. Seems to me there was a hidden hand. There is no right to impeach someone unless it is moral or the general assembly does it the man was duly elected by the general assembly of the COG.So what this tells me is if pastors vote someone in, and the system or Cleveland doesn’t benefit regardless of the vote they will ax him.
so I have to join a country club in Cleveland 😀________________
When it comes to forums, ya got One Glock an a heap a Daisy BB guns.Acts is the Glock 21, .45, holds 13 rounds, an is ready fer action.All Acts posters are either COG, was COG, or wanna be COG.
I can’t be much help, but as you know OTCP paints Acts with a narrow brush. We have several posters who fit other categories than stated by OTCP paints. Of course OTCP knows that also, he just fergot to mention the independents, AG and Cogop guys. Just saying for no reason I guess, because you know this. OTCP has an opinion, like my grandson tells me, Everyone has an opinion Grandpa, but it might not be right according to Hoyle. I thought for a long time he meant Doyle________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
That’s what I get think this post was about peanuts 🥜
I love it!
You no doubt are speaking of some in COG positions. But being born there, I would LOVE to live there again so I could be close to my parents and my kin.
I am sure you are talking about the one in Ohio, not the one in Tn.
Re: Just wanted you to know
Love you too, Jimmie.But seriously, do you really think that just cause nobody responded to the ole timer’s post in 12 1/2 hours except you, or if nobody had responded at all, that it makes the subject of this thread irrelevant? The mere fact that the issue irritated you to the point of respondin reinforces its relevance.Hey, you ain’t got no daddy, uncle, son, or even yaself what’s touting a honery docterate do ya?
Hey OTCP, I’ve actually applied to the D.Min program at North Greenville University. Looks like a good program. SACS accredited. Hoping to be accepted and start this fall. Possibly sooner if we can get ducks in row________________
I have a real, earned doctorate, and I don’t care if these men get honorary doctorates or not.It does bother me when someone puts some kind of religious doctorate after their name after a butchered of a Biblical text or false statements about the Hebrew or Greek. I’ve seen that with a D.Min. before________________
I like that attitude mountain man! I know folks I respect with an honorary and folks I hold much lower that have a ‘bought degree’. But I have met and worked with two men with earned doctorates who could not tie their shoes.________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
I like that attitude mountain man! I know folks I respect with an honorary and folks I hold much lower that have a ‘bought degree’. But I have met and worked with two men with earned doctorates who could not tie their shoes. After I got my degree, I visited my mom, and I was going to do something, hook up the grill maybe, or something like that. I said, I can figure out how to do it. I have a PhD.My mom used to work as a secretary in an Ag Econ department. She said she and the other secretaries had a running joke, He’s not able to do that. He has a Ph.D. People can be smart in different ways________________
Ya mean like Rick Renner?Bottom line:1) It don’t bother ya when men/women git em a honery doctorate………….
I am not familiar with him.
Praying for you bro________________
Praying for you, Bro. Dave
Sure thing Dave. As one who has suffered from mental illness myself (primarily depression but far more serious stuff including alcoholism as a young adult), I want to commend you for being transparent with your struggle.
I stand with everyone hear in prayer for ur deliverance, & i thank the L-rd that He has heard us & He will answer us Ps189:3. Others Ps 3:4, 6:9, 34:4, 99:6, 120:1, 118:21, 5:3, 140:6, 55:17, Jonah 2:2😉There are alot more, but write these down on Post-its and put them all over your house so you can see them and speak them every day and stand on them , and I agree with you in them. In Y’shua’s Name amein ðŸ˜________________Ps 122:6
Praying for you brother. Know you are surrounded and undergirded with the love and prayers of family members in Christ. We stand with you________________
I was hanging out with a pastor friend last week who suffers from severe depression. We were talking about this and he said this view is basically gnosticism. He said, Yeah, if I was just a spirit, then a spiritual solution is all I would ever need. But I’m not just a spirit. I hadn’t considered it from that angle before, and I thought that was pretty profound.
I appreciate that comment and also am sending up prayers for Dave. The brain is amazing, sweet, and CONFUSING. Also very hard to understand and deal with IN ANOTHER PERSON!Prayers YES________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
[quote=Da Sheik]Prayers for you Dave. The brain is like any other organ. It always amazes me when people try to reduce mental maladies to demons and such. When our chemicals are out of balance, it’s no different from a pancreas secreting too much or too little insulin. Thank you for your humility and transparency. When I returned home from Vietnam, I battled PTSD (which at the time, no one knew how to diagnose or treat), anxiety, and depression.[/quoteGreat message from Da Shiek. I am praying for you Dave. One of the smartest students in my Christian counseling program was a pharmacist. OCD was such a struggle he couldn’t work full-time because he wasn’t able to hand a patient a prescription without continually counting it.
I was hanging out with a pastor friend last week who suffers from severe depression. We were talking about this and he said this view is basically gnosticism. He said, Yeah, if I was just a spirit, then a spiritual solution is all I would ever need. But I’m not just a spirit. I hadn’t considered it from that angle before, and I thought that was pretty profound.Thanks to everyone for your prayers. Today wasn’t perfect, but it was the best day I’ve had since this started again. Continued prayers are very, very much appreciated. I don’t recall the book, but Charles Conn wrote something that has stuck with me for decades. He said that if it is a demon that causes, say, a cold, then orange juice would have no effect on the matter.
Thanks everyone for your prayers. I’ve had a couple of good days and a couple of really bad ones. I’m not sure what to expect from here, but I know with the Lord’s help I can make it for the long haul.
Imma pray that the headaches go away forever my friend. I also hope they get the bath water HOT!Love you dude, hope you B better soon! Hint, try holding your wife tighter and watch a sunset, that might work. ________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
I’ve been holding my wife pretty tight here recently, but not at sunset. It’s hard to see through the smog sometimes, and today there was a big gully washer, so it may either be cloudy or really clear about 6:15 at sunset. We can see the sunrise through the windows that make up one of the walls of our bedroom. Sunset is blocked by the wall on the other side________________
I’ve been holding my wife pretty tight here recently, but not at sunset. It’s hard to see through the smog sometimes, and today there was a big gully washer, so it may either be cloudy or really clear about 6:15 at sunset. We can see the sunrise through the windows that make up one of the walls of our bedroom. Sunset is blocked by the wall on the other side. Shucks, then just hold her and imagine a beautiful mountain water fall and how nice the Blue Ridge (and South Mts) are this time of the year! ________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
When I first saw this post I was excited…but then disappointed.You see, Jacuzzi is one of my favorite characters in the Bible.I wrote my doctoral dissertation on him (Life Christian University).He was the older brother of Jabez and cousin of Jabba (the Hutt).Anyway…just thought I would share a Monday morning reflection with you guys.
Yes – mods please change this thread title to Prayer of Jacuzzi________________
Jezebel
You’re right…I forgot about her….
A praise report folks. I went to the jacuzzi last night and it was hot, a little hotter maybe than it had been before it broke. Anyway, it was really good. I use that thing every night that I don’t work too late. Maybe I ought to ask you to pray that the thing will stay on past 10 PM. I am probably going to miss it when I move. I use the near-ice-cold jacuzzi, too, a few times a week, to supposedly help heal muscle tissue after weight-lifting and to prepare myself in case I move the family somewhere that has winter. The tension headaches seem to be less severe, and the jacuzzi left. I’ve had a bit of a head cold for 10 or 12 days, and that seems to be going away, too________________
AND – COG teen talent could book the 4H club national HQ – they have tons of rooms – cafeteria – and the price might be right. In Chevy Chase – MD.And with all the evangelical leaders hanging out at the White House – perhaps some of them could stop by the convention________________
Back in the early 2000s I attended the Assemblies of God General Conference in downtown DC. It was amazing, they used at least three different buildings – one for General Sessions – one for Exhibitions (including the newest media equipment and a stage to try it out on and record) – one for Youth Services – all were located near each other near the Capital building. They had outreach events and youth activities going on in the Mail. DC is a great place to visit. Their business was interesting, they had a Parliamentarian and Roberts Rules seemed to rule. During the business they would have interludes in which honors and awards were given out. The night I was there they had a Parade of Nations with missionaries dressed in native attire and carrying the national flags.I have never seen so many young people at such an event – I think they ran their national youth conference simultaneous with the General Conference.
I think this is a great idea. I lived there for a few years and said everyone should visit DC (BUT NEVER WORK THERE).It would also be a good time to see some congressmen and for them to see many of their voters are conservative Christians.I like it! ________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
I would be in favor of a yearly conference in the COG. I think 4 yrs is the wrong direction. Winter fest is every yr. we need to model what works in the cog. Winter fest is the best example of what works for the COG. Why can’t there be a yearly conference where the cog puts on its best for the sake of the church?. Surely not every meeting has to be a business meeting. I think that would help energize the base of the cog. Going to four year GA is a situation where our political leaders think if they meet less they won’t be so opinionated. Not true if we meet less we simply will just stop existing. I don’t want us to stop existing. Less meetings means we just simply won’t exist. That energy of opinion gives our organization life and if we kill that We would just be killing ourselves. We have to get back on track. We also need to be distinctly Pentecostal. This Diet Coke non offensive vanilla boarderline baptist speakers of the last couple of years needs to stop. We need powerful spirit filled spirit affirming speakers. Is it sad to say was more excited by the rise conference line up then the last few years of the general assembly line up. At least these speakers affirm the Pentecostal lifestyle. Some of our past speaker made me just wonder what are we… I am excited that jentzen is speaking.
The A/G ran Teen Talent and Bible Quiz at the same time when I was a teenager. We all had a big meeting together. The crowd looked like candidates for a beauty contest________________
Ag runs their teen talent, Fine Arts, every year. Or does not meet with the adults every time. Also, they let everyone with a superior go to fine arts national. They don’t limit it to 2 from each state…so they potentially have lots more competitors________________
I think the DC idea is fantastic! I wonder if they would have a simultaneous pro-life march for the lower levels of the COG, and an LGBT/Feminism/Safe-Space march for the intelligentsia? Something for everyone!
Perhaps Pathway could also sell P***Y hats for Lee professors to buy to lead the COG LGBT/Feminism march________________
Perhaps Pathway could also sell P***Y hats for Lee professors to buy to lead the COG LGBT/Feminism march?
Perhaps Pathway could also sell P***Y hats for Lee professors to buy to lead the COG LGBT/Feminism march? LOL 😃🤣😄ðŸ˜ðŸ˜†ðŸ‘ðŸ»
DC is expensive!
I’d welcome a GA in the Northeast. DC is expensive, But I’d love it. Might I suggest Baltimore because it is much cheaper and only 40 miles from DC. Plenty to do in Baltimore and Washington DC as well… Free Museums, Inner Harbor, Casino’s (well not for COG peeps), Mt Vernon, Camden Yards (Go O’s), Both cities have convention centers, Operation Compassion Ministry Sites (both cities), Urban Missions Service Projects (youth), etc.
all Scriptural references do not support an exclusive worship activity of the early church on the 1st Day.Acts 15:28should be viewed in light of Acts 15:21, For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath. Paul and the Gentile Christians met on the Sabbath, probably Saturday morning for prayer and Scripture reading and exposition. When they heard the news, the Gentile believers didn’t begrudge meeting on the Sabbath but were relieved nothing more was expected, viz. circumcision, etc. (they don’t have to become Pharisee branded Jews to be accepted).Acts 20:7refers to the first day, but that day began Saturday evening after sunset. Paul left after an all-nighter.Revelation 1:10- there is only one day referenced in the Scripture as the Lord’s day, that being the Sabbath.Traditional citations began after Gentile/Greek-minded/worldview teachers distanced themselves from Jews, and unfortunately Jewish Believers, and loathing anything smacking of Jewish Influence. Which is ironic for two reasons:The Gentile Dominated Church adopted/adapted traditions paralleling Jewish Feasts.The Gentile Dominated Church open the floodgates for Pagan influence in the church.________________God-HonoringChrist-CenteredBible-BasedSpirit-Led
MY FRIEND, GO STUDY THE BIBLE INSTEAD OF ALL THESE CATHOLICS. BUT THANKS FOR THE HISTORY LESSON, NOW GOING BY THREAD WITH ALL OF MY SCRIPTURES I HAVE PLACED ABOUT THE SABBATH DAY AND SET THEM UP SIDE BY SIDE ALL OF YOUR CHURCH FATHERS AND SEE IF IT HOLDS UP TO WHAT GOD SAYS ðŸ˜ðŸ˜‰SHALO________________Ps 122:6
.Judaizers always want to say Acts 15:28was about circumcision. You have said so yourself in other threads.Unfortunately, that is not the conversation that took place.Yes, the question was about circumcision.But the Holy Spirit’s answer was this:For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:1. that you abstain from things offered to idols,2.from blood, 3. from things strangled, 4. and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.So, actually, the Holy Spirit did not say that circumcision not necessary – because only these four things are necessary.This would have been a perfect place for the Holy Spirit to say keeping the Sabbath was necessary, but He did not include it.
.Judaizers always want to say Acts 15:28was about circumcision. You have said so yourself in other threads.Unfortunately, that is not the conversation that took place.Yes, the question was about circumcision.But the Holy Spirit’s answer was this:For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:1. that you abstain from things offered to idols,2.from blood, 3. from things strangled, 4. and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.So, actually, the Holy Spirit did not say that circumcision not necessary – because only these four things are necessary.This would have been a perfect place for the Holy Spirit to say keeping the Sabbath was necessary, but He did not include it.
.Uh, nobody disputes the Jews and some Gentiles met on the Sabbath. Acts 15was approximately the year AD49.Paul and the apostles went into the synagogues to preach to the Jews.A lot of the early Christians were converted from Judaism.Btw, who is Moshe?
.Uh, nobody disputes the Jews and some Gentiles met on the Sabbath. Acts 15was approximately the year AD49.Paul and the apostles went into the synagogues to preach to the Jews.A lot of the early Christians were converted from Judaism.Btw, who is Moshe?
.Uh, nobody disputes the Jews and some Gentiles met on the Sabbath. Acts 15was approximately the year AD49.Paul and the apostles went into the synagogues to preach to the Jews.A lot of the early Christians were converted from Judaism.Btw, who is Moshe?
.Uh, nobody disputes the Jews and some Gentiles met on the Sabbath. Acts 15was approximately the year AD49.Paul and the apostles went into the synagogues to preach to the Jews.A lot of the early Christians were converted from Judaism.Btw, who is Moshe?
You don’t have to answer the question, because the Holy Spirit already did in Acts 15.The question was do they have to be circumcised? The Holy Spirit said only four things were necessary.
You don’t have to answer the question, because the Holy Spirit already did in Acts 15.The question was do they have to be circumcised? The Holy Spirit said only four things were necessary.Now, if they are still required to be circumcised and keep the Sabbath – why didn’t the Holy Spirit include them in the list? As for the Sabbath day, the already keeping it to learn more of the Torah when they go every Sabbath day to hear it. Like I told you before I cannot answer you all of the circumcision questions, as you can’t, as you have no answer for Ezekiel 44:9. In the Torah, G-ds Instructions He says in Ex 12:43that no Gentile can partake in the Passover unless he is circumcised vs 44, just like Ezekiel his bought with a price& U know circumcision is the sign of the Covenant, & G-ds people are supposed to look and live different from the rest of the world, & the only way that happens is when we live by God’s Torah, His Instructions, because that’s what He says is right. & U brought up Acts 15@ the Jerusalem Council, I’ll say it again, as it was dealt with there too, circumcision is not for salvation. Christianity teaches that circumcision is done away with, and they equated it with all of the Law done away with. Both are wrongMy personal opinion, I think so & I know what the N.T. says in Rom 2:25-29. Paraphrase Paul is saying that circumcision in the heart is keeping God’s Commandments, and circumcision the flesh is the sign of the Covenant. And if you’re breaking G-ds Commandments you’re transgressor of the Law & your circumcision is worthless…________________Ps 122:6
But the circumcised heart is more important than the flesh of course, I already can hear you ðŸ˜________________Ps 122:6
You don’t have to answer the question, because the Holy Spirit already did in Acts 15.The question was do they have to be circumcised? The Holy Spirit said only four things were necessary.Now, if they are still required to be circumcised and keep the Sabbath – why didn’t the Holy Spirit include them in the list? Like I told you before I cannot answer you all of the circumcision questions, as you can’t, as you have no answer for Ezekiel 44:9 I do have the answer. The Holy Spirit did not say circumcision or Sabbath-keeping was necessary. The Holy Spirit said only four things were necessary.Now, you did not answer the question:
You don’t have to answer the question, because the Holy Spirit already did in Acts 15.The question was do they have to be circumcised? The Holy Spirit said only four things were necessary.Now, if they are still required to be circumcised and keep the Sabbath – why didn’t the Holy Spirit include them in the list? Like I told you before I cannot answer you all of the circumcision questions, as you can’t, as you have no answer for Ezekiel 44:9 I do have the answer. The Holy Spirit did not say circumcision or Sabbath-keeping was necessary. The Holy Spirit said only four things were necessary.Now, you did not answer the question:Why didn’t the Holy Spirit include that Sabbath-keeping in the list – why didn’t He list five or six things, instead of only four? Pastor…., Those were for things Gentile we’re supposed to start off with, instead of being circumsized and keeping all of Moshe/Torah Acts 15:1. I know you know what this is, I don’t know what you’re doing LOL. & The reason why the Holy Spirit didn’t Command the Sabbath was because where else are they going to go to hear the Torah but in the synagogue on the Sabbath….ðŸ˜. & Btw, it’s already commanded to the Sojourner, Foreigner, Gentile in Y’sreal to keep the Sabbath, & the Torah Lev 24:22; you shall have one matter of Law/Torah as well for the stranger, ask for one in your own country, I am the L-rd your G-d. Ex 12:49says there is one Law/Torah for you and the Sojourner living with you. Btw, Ex 20:10says the Sabbath is for everyone, whether they get it or not 😇. & Sunday is not in the 10 Words ðŸ˜And I think it’s hilarious how people say I never answer their questions, when I do, and no one ever answers mine as my thread that you ignore my scriptures of the Sabbath lol you have no scriptures against it & you getting out the subject LO________________Ps 122:6
You don’t have to answer the question, because the Holy Spirit already did in Acts 15.The question was do they have to be circumcised? The Holy Spirit said only four things were necessary.Now, if they are still required to be circumcised and keep the Sabbath – why didn’t the Holy Spirit include them in the list? Like I told you before I cannot answer you all of the circumcision questions, as you can’t, as you have no answer for Ezekiel 44:9 I do have the answer. The Holy Spirit did not say circumcision or Sabbath-keeping was necessary. The Holy Spirit said only four things were necessary.Now, you did not answer the question:Why didn’t the Holy Spirit include that Sabbath-keeping in the list – why didn’t He list five or six things, instead of only four? Pastor…., Those were for things Gentile we’re supposed to start off with, instead of being circumsized and keeping all of Moshe/Torah Acts 15:1. I know you know what this is, I don’t know what you’re doing LOL. & The reason why the Holy Spirit didn’t Command the Sabbath was because where else are they going to go to hear the Torah but in the synagogue on the Sabbath….ðŸ˜. & Btw, it’s already commanded to the Sojourner, Foreigner, Gentile in Y’sreal to keep the Sabbath, & the Torah Lev 24:22; you shall have one matter of Law/Torah as well for the stranger, ask for one in your own country, I am the L-rd your G-d. Ex 12:49says there is one Law/Torah for you and the Sojourner living with you. Btw, Ex 20:10says the Sabbath is for everyone, whether they get it or not 😇. & Sunday is not in the 10 Words ðŸ˜And I think it’s hilarious how people say I never answer their questions, when I do, and no one ever answers mine as my thread that you ignore my scriptures of the Sabbath lol you have no scriptures against it & you getting out the subject LOL
Oh, start with what the Holy Spirit says – and then add requirements.
Oh, start with what the Holy Spirit says – and then add requirements.THE HOLY SPIRIT CAN’T SAY SOMETHING OTHER THAN WHAT WAS ALREADY SAID, THAT’S A CONTRADICTION. And excuse the bold lettering again
ShabBAT Shaloooooooom Pastor Nations & Aaron & everyone else ,😊😇. May the L-rd bless you & keep you, may the L-rd make His face to shine upon you & be gracious to you, & may the L-rd lift up His countenance upon you and give you His Shalom, His Peace. In the Name of Sar Shalom the Prince of Peace Y’shua HaMashiach Amein, Amein ðŸ˜________________Ps 122:6
How about SLC Utah ? 95 % mormon, and all the wives a man can handle
Forget Springfield
Come a few miles further south and come to Branso________________
All that really matters about Springfield is that it’s the Mecca of Bass Pro shops. No denominational prejudice is tolerated there.ðŸ˜________________“Hell will be filled with people that didn’t cuss, didn’t drink, and may even have been baptized. Why? Because none of those things makes someone a Christian.”
Video referencegetyarn.io/yarn-clip/e306b527-2ac2-4032-9a4c-98fda5929c29
http://www.youtube.com/embed/i47lyjYF5As________________
I would rather be in Springfield LOL
SFM, This reminds me of that time on the simpson where there was fight over shelbyville and springfield being better. Sorta reminds me of this situation.youtu.be/bNsJSE82YmU________________
That’s great Eddie.Rumbling, bumbling, stumbling across the finish line – we need Chris Berman to narrate your race – and just like in football – you cross the line in any form or fashion – it counts. Boston Marathon Finisher!Believe it or not – I followed the race online – and I could see how miserable it was and everyone giving up. But in my heart – I knew you wouldn’t give up – even if you crawled to the finish a day later. I didn’t know how right I was.Congrats________________
Amen________________
Many times opportunities arise that seem perfect. There have been a couple of occasions, when I was certain I was going to move, and the opportunity was a sure thing. On two specific occasions however, I could not get a sense of peace, that putting in for the church was the right choice. So i stayed put. So far that has proven to be the right choice. It didn’t make sense to me initially. It didn’t make sense to some of my friends. I argued with God. I got upset, because He wouldn’t let me go, when I knew I was the perfect choice. But after all was said and done, I stayed. I’m so glad________________
You know the old saying….If the grass is greener on the other side of the fence…….
Yeah, and just maybe that greener grass is just over a septic tank! ________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
I have an AG Sectional Presbyter friend in this situation. He literally has been at the same church since 1987, as youth pastor, assistant pastor and pastor. He wants to be closer to his elderly parents in another state. But in spite of recommendations from the most influential people in Springfield, he cannot find a church that will take him. Everyone seems to be looking for the yuppie couple in their 30’s with kids. He’s very frustrated________________
I haven’t posted this in a while, but when I read this, I think how foreign this whole concept must have been to those in the early church.The Jerusalem church eventually had elders that pastored it. The apostles also ‘pastored’ in their ministry. And some of them travelled quite a bit. But Paul and Barnabas appointed elders in every church. Paul had Titus appoint elders in every city. They were appointing people from within the congregation, from within the city, to pastor the congregation of which they were a part. Eventually, they developed a system (not taught in scripture, certainly not explicitly) where one man was the leader of the elders and was considered the ‘bishop’. Scripture calls all the elders bishops, and so did one of the letters from Clement. But in the early centuries, at least in the 4th century, there was a tradition against a bishop leaving one ecclesiastical see for another. Backing up to Biblical times, the elders who pastored the church lived there. Apostles who planted churches or visited them might ‘pastor’ temporarily, and eventually appoint local pastors from within the very congregations. But I don’t see where there were professional pastors who came in and took over a church they weren’t a part of because the people were easier to deal with or it offered better career opportunities. Btw, I hear in Eastern Orthodox churches, to get a new priest, the congregation puts forth the man they think is the most like Christ. I suspect church leaders have a say in it, but during the ordination, the congregation has to say ‘he is worthy.’ If someone says he is not worthy, then the bishops investigate. They can have married priests, so this is much more feasible than in the RCC system________________
Yeah, and just maybe that greener grass is just over a septic tank! This looks like the origins of a new old saying,The grass is always greener over the septic tank.________________
I swore off the shoney’s Bear 🻠after the violent Food poisoning it gave everyone at one states camp meeting I attended a couple of decades back…. And some bad news otcp. The pikeville shoneys is closed down… just like a lot of the other ones across the south.
I would like to see this also with the year would be good.I attended Indianapolis and Memphis. I remember my dad talking about Chattanooga. Dallas is remembered.I hear it was in Orlando, but I did not attend. LO________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
Found it… Pentecostalarchives.org has all the general assembly minutes in the digital archives. I composed the location list here.1906 Camp creak, NC1907 union grove Bradley county, TN1908 Cleveland TN1909 Cleveland TN1910 Cleveland TN1911 Cleveland TN1912 Cleveland TN1913 Cleveland TN1914 Cleveland TN1915 Cleveland TN1916 Harriman TN1917 Harriman TN1919 Cleveland TN1920 Cleveland TN1921 Cleveland TN1922 Cleveland TN1923 Cleveland TN1924 Cleveland TN1925 Cleveland TN1926 Cleveland TN1927 Cleveland TN1928 Cleveland TN1929 Cleveland TN1930 Cleveland TN1931 Cleveland TN1932 Cleveland TN1933 Cleveland TN1934 Chattanooga TN1935 Chattanooga TN1936 Chattanooga TN1937 Chattanooga TN1938 Chattanooga TN1939 Atlanta GA1940 Chattanooga TN1941 Chattanooga TN1942 Birmingham AL1943 Birmingham AL1944 Columbus Ohio1945 Sevierville, TN1946 Birmingham AL1948 Birmingham AL1950 Birmingham AL1952 Indianapolis IN1954 Memphis TN1956 Memphis TN1958 Memphis TN1960 Memphis TN1962 Memphis TN1964 Dallas TX1966 Memphis TN1968 Dallas TX1970 St Louis TN1972 Dallas TX1974 Dallas TX1976 Dallas TX1978 Kansas City MO1980 Dallas TX1982 Kansas City MO1984 Fort Worth TX1986 Atlanta GA1988 Fort Worth TX1990 San Antonio TX1992 New Orleans LA1994 Indianapolis IN1996 San Antonio TX1998 San Antonio TX2000 St Louis MO2002 Indianapolis, IN2004 San Antonio TX2006 Indianapolis IN2008 San Antonio TX2010 Orlando FL2012 Orlando FL2014 Orlando FL2016 Nashville TN2018 Orlando, FL
Bill Cosby is a sad story. The man was my favorite comedian. I did not realize he was a full fledged doctor. But no it should not be stripped, he can practice in Prison. ________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
I looked it up. His doctorate was not in medicine or pharmacology. It was in education. He write his dissertation on using his Fat Albert TV show in teaching elementary school children according to Wikipedia.Cosby has received a number of honorary doctorate degrees. The following section is quoted from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Cosby:
Very sad, for him, the victims and all connected. Sin takes us further than we ever intended to go and costs us more than we ever intended to pay. I’m praying for Bill that he truly repents before the Judge of all judges________________
Honorary doctorate superior to earned doctorate?You boys gave me a belly laugh for I went to bed. Thanks.Even a earned doctorate can be revoked under certain circumstances.
I wonder if anyone ever had more honorary Doctorates than Cosby? Everyone seemed to want to give him one.He broke all kinds of color barriers.He made cartoons that taught life lessons.He was a clean comedian.He spoke out about living right.He portrayed the best Dad in America on TV for years.And all the time he wanted to slip pills to women to have sex with them.For goodness sake – there had to be lots of women that would have gladly did it for free – but he wanted to dominate and have power over helpless women. What causes a dude to be so accomplished and so sick at the same time________________
It is truly a sad day for America. Prior to my hearing of these allegations of sexual assault, like so many others, I was a huge fan of just about everything Cosby did.Last year, in my work as a part-time reporter for our local small-town newspaper, my reporting of the facts brought about the resignation under pressure of our city manager. His misconduct (that we know about so far) was similar to Cosby’s. I received quite a bit of flak from people who absolutely adored the guy in spite of his now proven history of sexual predation and other misconduct and immorality. “Well, nobody’s perfect,†they said. What would formerly have caused moral outrage in our culture now elicits a shrug of the shoulders and a brain-dead, “Well, nobody’s perfect†comment.
Our daughter went to Italy for 3 months when she graduated high-school. One day she got really ill and of course we were worried sick. To our surprise and relief, her host family just took her to the drugstore, told her symptoms, and the pharmacist gave her antibiotics for about 10 euro, whereas here in the good ol’ USofA it would have been a $200 office visit and another 3 hour delay waiting for a USDA approved $100 drug. I was shocked that amid all the cries of European social medicine, that they do something right and that it would save HUGE amounts of money in this country.
When my son was four, I took him to an urgent care in Columbus. He’d been coughing all night for several nights and I was really concerned for his health and his life. After 7 hours of waiting, at a so-called urgent care, the doctor gave him nothing at all. He had a terrible night again and got worse. I took him to another doctor. After 5 hours or so, the doctor gave him some amoxillin. My son spit out most of the first dose. He did get better and survived. Some time later, we were at a church gathering at a park. The kids were throwing rocks into the river, and someone hit my three-year-old in the head with a rock. Someone from church escourted us to a branch of our hospital in Dayton. We might have been the first ones in line, or there may have been another child or two there. Service was fast and professional, not the downtown Columbus madhouse. After that, I figured we’d drive an extra 12 or 15 miles so as not to wait in line. I didn’t have any time to wait when I was in the MBA program. In Indonesia, you can usually just go to the hospital to see a doctor, at least during the day, and they see you in about 10 minutes to half an hour in my experience, a drop in. I think I have spent $30 or $40 with medicine. A filling at the expensive dentist was about $60________________
Guys – I hate to be the bearer of bad news – but widespread use of antibiotics has caused them to not be as effective anymore.Now I see where the widespread comes from. Self medicating from symptoms is old school. Now they can test in the office and see if you have an actual infection – or if that is ruled out – it is a virus and the medication does no good – and usually you will get better anyway________________
Its not self-medicating, the pharmacist is trained and makes the same determination a doctor does here, just cuts out the over-priced waste of money. I disagree.If they don’t test for an infection – it is old school. Our pediatrician has his own lad – that can tell in a few minutes – however most ins won’t pay for it. SO he does it anyway and doesn’t charge for it. Medicating for things that have NO effect on your well being only helps with a placebo effect.One day everyone will do it that way. Of course by then – all our antibiotics will be of no use to real infections________________
I know very little about medicine. I have had one prescription in my life. But in Mexico I learned something by several other travelers. I was there for dental work. The other had bought Prescription drugs (they had prescriptions). The drugs they bought were labeled ‘Packaged in the USA’ at about a third the price here in the USA.Side note. I just had a tooth pulled in /Belmont, NC. Bill $430.00. I had a root canal, 3 fillings and three caps for less than that in Mexico. That hurt! LOLSumting wong here________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
I had a tooth filled for about $10 in Jakarta before, but that was many years ago. You could probably find a place for $25 nowadays, maybe. One dentist charged me $10 for a temporary filling and didn’t tell me it was temporary. They rented out rooms to dentists so I could find the one who ripped me off.I also found out I had to request novacaine beforehand. In the US, they give it whether you ask or not. In Indonesia, you have to request it________________
Its not self-medicating, the pharmacist is trained and makes the same determination a doctor does here, just cuts out the over-priced waste of money. I disagree.If they don’t test for an infection – it is old school. Our pediatrician has his own lad – that can tell in a few minutes – however most ins won’t pay for it. SO he does it anyway and doesn’t charge for it. Medicating for things that have NO effect on your well being only helps with a placebo effect.One day everyone will do it that way. Of course by then – all our antibiotics will be of no use to real infections. Indonesian doctors used to give a strong antihistamine and an antibiotic for the slightest cold. My wife complained when US doctors made you wait and hour, charged you money, and gave you some advice you didn’t need and sent you home. I think they give tests more often before giving out meds now, but they still send you home with syrups, etc. If you get digestive problems from eating food that laid out of the refrigerator half a day like they all do in Indonesia, amoxicillin usually helps.A lot of people, if they had a choice between a $200 visit to the doctor to make sure they really need an antibiotic, or a few bucks for an antibiotic would take their chances and buy the antibiotic.Doctors know things pharamacists don’t, though pharmacists in the US are well trained. Most drug stores outside of the hospitals seem to be run by non-pharmacists who don’t give the right advice in Jakarta. You can ask for advice, but you have to look up dosages online. The antiobiotic I purchased seems to be working quite well and I am pleased with my purchase. But I hear 30% of the drugs sold are fakes________________
While visiting the Ukraine I noticed a dispensary where individuals walk in and get what they want/need.Wal-Mart offers a plan where you bring your prescription and if it is on their list of generics you can get a 30-day supply for $4, 90-day, $10. You don’t have to use your insurance card________________God-HonoringChrist-CenteredBible-BasedSpirit-Led
Link, I was 17 before I ever saw a Pizza. I was 75 before I ever saw the word sushi methinks. The word skeers me, so I ain’t never tried it. If you was still in the South Mountains, it would skeer you too! LOLHonestly we have never eaten sushi. I have seen it and I would think that frying it in egg would make a big difference! ________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
Does it really matter? In the State the AB has 100% authority. The State council is just an office of honor, but only has power gaven by the AB. I have no expectations the council of 18 or 24 most of who are beholden to the EC really has any authority. Our church structure is and will always be a top down structure. No board or council carries power. Power lies in the hands of the men that control your job. In the state that is the AB all other levels that is the EC. This will be a hotly debated items that will make no difference except for preception. If you want to make a difference let pastors elect their AB. Then ABs would be working for the state and not for the system. The power of appointments has corrupted our system. Top down power. I
Since this is a bylaw change, no amendment can be made. It has to be voted for or against as written.
Is this a fat joke?? ________________———My Facebook http://www.facebook.com/theB3
I would like to work on an amendment to the bylaw. Rationalization is that because almost 200-300% of our growth occurred outside the USA we should have more global leaders on the council. At least one leader from each region who lives outside the USA, which by the way could include a female! I would propose 6 members elected from outside the USA, 1 member elected from PTS or one of our other Seminaries (responsible for teaching us about doctrine and polity) and the rest could be pastors________________Dennis TannerAdministrative Bishop Scotland
Is this a fat joke??
Not to mention Benny Hinn went through a very public divorce and has since remarried his wife. It would have been a lot easier to start over with someone else. I think this signifies there is some redemption at work in the man.If you also recall, he submitted himself to Jack Hayford and others when he was under a lot of criticism 20 years or so ago. They gave him suggestions of things he could do to improve the way he conducted his ministry, like not throwing his coat at people. And he listened…and took their suggestions to heart. This sounds to me like a man who is honestly searching for the best way to serve the Lord. We want it all to be black and white, but the truth is God uses imperfect people. He used William Branham and AA Allen and Thea Jones and AJ Tomlinson. Imperfect people that God shone through for a season…even people like us.The BH services I attended taught me one thing. Sure there were people there who were caught up with the celebrity and the drama. But the thing that drew my attention was how the service was conducted. There were several segments to the service, just like in our churches – music, testimonies, offering, preaching…but the one thing that was constant was that in between each segment, there was worship. A testimony about healing was followed by a chorus or hymn that everyone knew, not the more modern songs, but songs like Amazing Grace and Reach out & touch the Lord. Every single time a segment ended, the people were immediately directed back into worship. And it is in the atmosphere of worship that our God shows up and shows out. He inhabits the praise of His people. Maybe it didn’t have anything to do with BH. Maybe it had to do with the fact that people came believing in faith that God would touch them, and as they worshiped…they were healed.I’ve also always remembered a line from the TV movie made about Jim Bakker. Some follow the messenger and endure the message. Some follow the message and endure the messenger.________________More of Him…less of me.twitter.com/camiracle77www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=691241499&ref=name
Is there a particular reason you’re throwing out Costi’s testimony?
That is exactly what I am saying, Doc.
And ….. he signed it. Dims may get what they want. I’m not sure I can vote for the GOP after this. Didn’t they just effectively fund sanctuary cities, daca, no wall, gun control, planned parenthood abortions, etc… ???
A number can commit a capital offense.For example seven ate nine________________
True. A drowning person doesn’t care if you have a degree. But, a student cares if his teacher has a fake degree.A church may not care if his pastor has a degree. But, people think you have insecurity issues if you go around touting a fake degree. It’s an ethics/integrity issue. I don’t understand it why we do that. We don’t look smart when we’re telling untruths. We don’t look courageous when we’re acting insecure.
Pastor Dow,You’re loved. Thank you for a beautiful contribution to the COG over the years. Someone else said that God has recorded your ministry. We have as well. It’s no small thing. We’re appreciative for you and your investment in our church family. And, I’m glad to say that leaving the COG doesn’t mean we all aren’t still a part of the family of God.
Maybe so.John 20:21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.†22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23