I believe that this text is talking about a class of people and not certain individuals. Using the whole of Scripture we can certainly see where we must align or choose to keep covenant with Him________________Proverbs 3:5-6; John 13:34-35; Acts 1:8
Please forgive me if I’m misunderstanding, but how would the text change if it was talking about a class of people rather than certain individuals? (I agree with the interpretation of a class here, by the way.)I’m not sure why brotherjames felt it was necessary to play the C card. Let’s presume an Arminian soteriology, and that the class of people in Rom 8:29-30are the elect whom God foreknew would choose him. Looking down the corridors of time and seeing their choice, God predestined them, called them, justified them, and glorified them.How is it possible that this can be genuinely received, but then lost? In texts concerning apostasy, like 1 John 2:19, it seems clear that those who depart the faith were never actually truly of it to begin with. Does the Lord not know those who are his?
This is a five-fold strand of activity on God’s part. God foreknows, God predestines, God calls, God justifies, God glorifies. The entirety of Romans 8is a powerful expression of the security of the believer. Let’s set aside all of the implications of Reformed theology in the first 3 strands
There are people that God does indeed predestinate. They WILL be saved. They WILL have eternal life.But there are others that, like the City of Jerusalem, COULD have been saved…but refused. Or COULD have been saved…and WERE!There are verses in BOTH directions. It is impossible to reconcile them without accepting that BOTH can be true. Why else would Jesus be sorrowful about the rich, young ruler unless another choice could have been made. If not, then Jesus was apparently sad that heaven had predestined the guy for hell. Further, if you do NOT believe in free will, you, of necessity, must except that everyone not predestined to eternal life is predestined to hell. The act of petty, petulant, adolescent God who COULD save everyone…but won’t.I consider that one of the most damnable doctrines ever, and a deep flaw in full Calvinism (even though I know it comes from the best of intentions).
I don’t want to derail this thread into a discussion about election and reprobation, but you should know that this is the point where your argument runs off the track. Romans 3:10
Getting back to the main point:If this is referring to a group (I agree) whom God justified, then how is it that it the entire group is not also glorified? Where is the note that some of the group that has been justified will become unjustified, and will not be glorified?
For years and years I have debated this question with sincere Christians. I was raised in a Southern Baptist congregation which held tightly to this errant doctrine.Indeed this has become my response.Cut to the chase.Read Hebrews, get a life________________Charles A. HutchinsSenior Pastor SPWCCongregational Church of Godwww.spwc.church
Yeah. I’m really not interested in winning anyone over to my position (whatever that is), but shouldn’t we all be eager to engage with out beliefs, think through things biblically, and learn to think theologically?ESPECIALLY when we have the opportunity to do so in good faith, with orthodox Christian brothers?
I don’t want to derail this thread into a discussion about election and reprobation, but you should know that this is the point where your argument runs off the track. Romans 3:10Arminians and Calvinists would both wholly reject this premise underlying your outrage at God’s judgment. Truthfully, I could care less what they might say, and for two reasons:1) They have a vested interest in NOT permitting there to be ANY exception to their theological viewpoint. The notion that there could be BOTH predestination and free will is repugnant to them. Of course, as you will know, that doesn’t make the position wrong. In fact, for my money, it almost certainly makes it RIGHT!!! (SMILE)2) I have to go where MY CONSCIENCE and MY STUDY take me. I cannot wear Saul’s armor on theological matters. I wish I could, as it would save me a lot of grief, of getting called a heretic, etc., if I would only, only, only just accept what they tell me is the case. But while I certainly skewer to the Arminian side, we KNOW–ABSOLUTELY KNOW!–that there is some predestination (to one degree or another) going on. To ignore that or try to explain it away is what I have come to detest about most theological positions: Despite there being verses to the contrary, they refuse to allow that it is any way but there way…and so spin off into, for me, uselessness.
Yes, I absolutely agree that everyone deserves to go to hell, etc. I get that. At the same time, we who have recoiled in horror at the cruelties of ancient, pagan, or heathen gods (I’m not sure I understand all those distinctions), will blithely accept that OUR God can be A TRILLION TIMES MORE CRUEL (i.e., to burn someone forever in hellfire)…yet be this wonderful, loving, kind Father?No. Just no.Yes, there is a justice that comes with God. And that justice may very well be burning in hell forever for your sins.But to burn in hell forever JUST BECAUSE GOD ARBITRARILY DID NOT SELECT YOU IN HEAVEN’S LOTTERY is a cruelty that makes me shake my head at people who accept it.That is, God COULD save EVERYONE (not if they have free will, perhaps, but certainly if He is predestinating everyone), but chooses not to. Which of us would think that a man who saw two drowning people and COULD HAVE SAVED BOTH, but didn’t, allowing one to drown, is remotely justified?Our sense of justice is PRECISELY what allows us to call God good and just when we see Him in action. We know He is good, that is, because we recognize good. He placed that in us, obviously. But Calvinists apparently want to argue that, no, you don’t really know good, evil, or justice…otherwise you would rejoice in God’s goodness at making millions of unfortunate souls burn forever. HOGWASH.That is a twisted Christianity. (Granted, I am giving this the take it to the extreme treatment that we use for polemics. I know that your day-to-day Calvinists might find this stuff as hard to swallow as I do, and might claim that that is not what they believe.) And as it is twisted, I reject it.
2 Peter 3:92 Peter 3:9New King James Version (NKJV)9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that
Re: I am certainly not going to get involved
I believe that this text is talking about a class of people and not certain individuals. Using the whole of Scripture we can certainly see where we must align or choose to keep covenant with Him________________Proverbs 3:5-6; John 13:34-35; Acts 1:8
Please forgive me if I’m misunderstanding, but how would the text change if it was talking about a class of people rather than certain individuals? (I agree with the interpretation of a class here, by the way.)I’m not sure why brotherjames felt it was necessary to play the C card. Let’s presume an Arminian soteriology, and that the class of people in Rom 8:29-30are the elect whom God foreknew would choose him. Looking down the corridors of time and seeing their choice, God predestined them, called them, justified them, and glorified them.How is it possible that this can be genuinely received, but then lost? In texts concerning apostasy, like 1 John 2:19, it seems clear that those who depart the faith were never actually truly of it to begin with. Does the Lord not know those who are his?
This is a five-fold strand of activity on God’s part. God foreknows, God predestines, God calls, God justifies, God glorifies. The entirety of Romans 8is a powerful expression of the security of the believer. Let’s set aside all of the implications of Reformed theology in the first 3 strands
There are people that God does indeed predestinate. They WILL be saved. They WILL have eternal life.But there are others that, like the City of Jerusalem, COULD have been saved…but refused. Or COULD have been saved…and WERE!There are verses in BOTH directions. It is impossible to reconcile them without accepting that BOTH can be true. Why else would Jesus be sorrowful about the rich, young ruler unless another choice could have been made. If not, then Jesus was apparently sad that heaven had predestined the guy for hell. Further, if you do NOT believe in free will, you, of necessity, must except that everyone not predestined to eternal life is predestined to hell. The act of petty, petulant, adolescent God who COULD save everyone…but won’t.I consider that one of the most damnable doctrines ever, and a deep flaw in full Calvinism (even though I know it comes from the best of intentions).
I don’t want to derail this thread into a discussion about election and reprobation, but you should know that this is the point where your argument runs off the track. Romans 3:10
Getting back to the main point:If this is referring to a group (I agree) whom God justified, then how is it that it the entire group is not also glorified? Where is the note that some of the group that has been justified will become unjustified, and will not be glorified?
Read Hebrews.Get a life________________Charles A. HutchinsSenior Pastor SPWCCongregational Church of Godwww.spwc.church
For years and years I have debated this question with sincere Christians. I was raised in a Southern Baptist congregation which held tightly to this errant doctrine.Indeed this has become my response.Cut to the chase.Read Hebrews, get a life________________Charles A. HutchinsSenior Pastor SPWCCongregational Church of Godwww.spwc.church
Yeah. I’m really not interested in winning anyone over to my position (whatever that is), but shouldn’t we all be eager to engage with out beliefs, think through things biblically, and learn to think theologically?ESPECIALLY when we have the opportunity to do so in good faith, with orthodox Christian brothers?
I don’t want to derail this thread into a discussion about election and reprobation, but you should know that this is the point where your argument runs off the track. Romans 3:10Arminians and Calvinists would both wholly reject this premise underlying your outrage at God’s judgment. Truthfully, I could care less what they might say, and for two reasons:1) They have a vested interest in NOT permitting there to be ANY exception to their theological viewpoint. The notion that there could be BOTH predestination and free will is repugnant to them. Of course, as you will know, that doesn’t make the position wrong. In fact, for my money, it almost certainly makes it RIGHT!!! (SMILE)2) I have to go where MY CONSCIENCE and MY STUDY take me. I cannot wear Saul’s armor on theological matters. I wish I could, as it would save me a lot of grief, of getting called a heretic, etc., if I would only, only, only just accept what they tell me is the case. But while I certainly skewer to the Arminian side, we KNOW–ABSOLUTELY KNOW!–that there is some predestination (to one degree or another) going on. To ignore that or try to explain it away is what I have come to detest about most theological positions: Despite there being verses to the contrary, they refuse to allow that it is any way but there way…and so spin off into, for me, uselessness.
Yes, I absolutely agree that everyone deserves to go to hell, etc. I get that. At the same time, we who have recoiled in horror at the cruelties of ancient, pagan, or heathen gods (I’m not sure I understand all those distinctions), will blithely accept that OUR God can be A TRILLION TIMES MORE CRUEL (i.e., to burn someone forever in hellfire)…yet be this wonderful, loving, kind Father?No. Just no.Yes, there is a justice that comes with God. And that justice may very well be burning in hell forever for your sins.But to burn in hell forever JUST BECAUSE GOD ARBITRARILY DID NOT SELECT YOU IN HEAVEN’S LOTTERY is a cruelty that makes me shake my head at people who accept it.That is, God COULD save EVERYONE (not if they have free will, perhaps, but certainly if He is predestinating everyone), but chooses not to. Which of us would think that a man who saw two drowning people and COULD HAVE SAVED BOTH, but didn’t, allowing one to drown, is remotely justified?Our sense of justice is PRECISELY what allows us to call God good and just when we see Him in action. We know He is good, that is, because we recognize good. He placed that in us, obviously. But Calvinists apparently want to argue that, no, you don’t really know good, evil, or justice…otherwise you would rejoice in God’s goodness at making millions of unfortunate souls burn forever. HOGWASH.That is a twisted Christianity. (Granted, I am giving this the take it to the extreme treatment that we use for polemics. I know that your day-to-day Calvinists might find this stuff as hard to swallow as I do, and might claim that that is not what they believe.) And as it is twisted, I reject it.
2 Peter 3:92 Peter 3:9New King James Version (NKJV)9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that