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Please help me with some objective feedback concerning the spiritual health of the church in America today. Obviously there are different opinions concerning whether this or that church is having a major impact on the city or if the spiritual condition is in crisis mode. Recently Doyle made an excellent thought provoking post concerning church attendance plunging in America.Please answer this question: Do you know of any testimonies in your church (whether you pastor or attend) of a situation in the last 5 years where a couple who lived together accepted Christ and as a natural part of the repentance process quit living together? I asked this to many pastor friends and so far the answer is zip, zilch zero. I can't even find somebody who knows of somebody (not even a personal relationship) where the Spirit of God cleansed somebody from this sin.I am not talking about the world but unfortunately know of many people who grew up in the church, went from children's church, youth group, Christian schools etc. and are now living with somebody. My heart is grieved as I see pastor's, board member's and other church leaders children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren falling away in this manner. Please understand I would never criticize these leaders but instead pray for them as I cannot imagine the pain they must feel.The bottom line is that our goal is to be used by God as Godly vessels to bring people into God's kingdom. Obviously Satan comes to steal, kill and destroy. I'm not talking about people who were married to get out of sin (more on that issue and philosophy in another post) but with living together as a normal way of life in our society are more people being drawn to God or Satan's way of life?Perhaps I am more aware of these situations than the average pastor because while my wife and I teach others to do the work of the ministry we are on the front lined of evangelistic efforts. I don't do bed checks but another reason these situations come to me is because I pastor in my hometown, didn't accept Christ until I was an adult and therefore am around unsaved friends and family members. Often they will confront me with situations that would never come up if I moved to another town and only knew people as the pastor of whatever church. I also have some rental properties which also expose me to these situations.The reason I ask for feedback is because I like facts rather than what I or others may think. Previously in the medical field and even in counseling documented studies usually are more relevant to the truth than my or your opinions.

The problem I have faced in my family (Grand children area) is they want me to answer the question 'What makes a Marriage?' Of course my answer is Love, commitment via a license. They will smile and say WE ARE COMMITTED, we need no piece of paper. The government is no help of course.I get the remarks, mom and dad had the paper and all it did was complicate the matter. They divorced anyway. And that is true.I am 78 yrs old now and this new 'relationship' thing confuses the dickens out of me. 'Significant other' just BLOWS my mind.I am also more enlightened at 78, or am I?I have even went back into a personal study as to what is marriage? So far I have no ONE ANSWER yet that , Answers ALL QUESTIONS.... I am actually more confused. Is it the church or government that says you are married? Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/

You are one of my favorite posters as you provide us with thought provoking posts and responses. Perhaps you can post this response into a new thread. It creates valid dialogue yet deals with reasons people are giving for what they do rather than what people are doing. I would be interested to see what others think about your questions. Obviously what your grandchildren ask are reasons he/she have for ignoring marriage.Since you are the first person to respond here am I correct in assuming the score is 1 for the world, 0 for the church? Are you seeing people raised in the church taking the live together before marriage road yet not seeing any unsaved people accepting Christ, repenting from sin with the corresponding action of 1 party moving out?

I have in the past encouraged shackers to get married, and have done more than one wedding for people who had been living together for years. In premarital counseling, I always touch on the issue of sexual immorality and how sex outside of the bonds of marriage is sinful, which, in my experience, they wouldn't be coming to me for marital advice in the first place if they didn't know what they were doing was not right.In light of the 'gay marriage' issue, I have felt constrained to change my wedding policy, and to only marry members in good standing of my local church. The only exception I would make to that would be if they were members in good standing of another local Bible-believing church, I knew them well, and their pastor was okay with me performing the ceremony. Even then, I would be very reticent, and in no way obligated, to perform a wedding ceremony for any who were not members in good standing of my local church.

I have been approached by several young couples over the last year. So, yes we have seen success stories. We also have older (I use that term loosely, since I'm older), who cohabitate and are defiant about marriage. In many instances, they have chosen not to marry because it would mean they would stop receiving some kind of financial support from a previous spouse. Sad, but true. On a funny (not funny ) note, we have a couple who are living together but pretend that they're not. They drive separate vehicles to church. However, when we last requested updated information for our directory, they both listed the same mailing address

[quote=Da Sheik]I have been approached by several young couples over the last year. So, yes we have seen success stories. [/quote]Thanks so much for the feedback. If you don't mind me asking are you referring to people who were living together and decided to get married? Obviously that is prevalent due to the percentage of people living together before marriage and is another subject.I am asking if we have anybody who accepted Christ, repented from sin and then decided to go sin no more and live in separate places? I am also asking about those who are Christians, backslid into living together then repented, continued dating but lived separately.

One time...

I have a couple who were co-habitating when they came to our church, but within a few months, decided to let me marry them. That is my one and only success story, but I have an entire list of shackers who left the church after being turned down for membership due to their marital status

On April 15 a couple is getting married in Bend, OR that came into the church living together. He and I became very good friends before I moved to Florida...enough so that they were going to fly me back there to perform the ceremony. Unfortunately they chose the day before Easter. I can miss a Sunday at LPC...I can't miss THAT Sunday! Another close friend of mine married his live-in girlfriend very quickly after coming to the Lord...but that was more than 5 years ago...it was around 13 or 14 years ago now.

To answer your question, I don't have a one-size-fits-all approach. In many cases, couples already have children together. This is probably not the answer you were looking for, and I don't mean to sound condescending in any way. But when I see couples making strides towards obedience to God, I try to put as few barriers as possible. I have married many couples over the years that other ministers refused to officiate. That doesn't mean I'm right, or that they're wrong. Pastors each have their own way they navigate this subject. One of my best friends in the world refuses a lot of people but will give them my number (what a great guy right ?