I watched the movie concerning Lakeland Florida. This post is ABSOLUTELY serious.I am from a time that shouting, walking the benches, rolling in the floor, running the aisles, jerking and ‘screaming’ were common place.Over the years those actions slowly phased out.Simultaneously it seemed we began to be slowly accepted as a ‘Real Church’. I have my own theory, but it is a theory. I also think mostly the change is good.
I think we were probably somewhere in the middle. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with Pentecostal worship that involves physical and emotional outbursts (for lack of a better word.) But I do think there are times when the emotions are stirred up (and no change occurs) and at other times, the human spirit is stirred by the Holy Spirit. There are still churches where this occurs. It’s up to the pastor/leadership to see that order is maintained. And it can happen where it is perfectly in order. I think we need to find the balance between what used to be and what is now. (Said respectfully of our heritage…________________More of Him…less of me.twitter.com/camiracle77www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=691241499&ref=name
In my lifetime the CoG has come from extreme emotionalism during worship services to criticism of any emotionalism.Acts is a perfect example of what I am talking about.I have read of criticism of what took place in Brownsville. I personally experienced Brownsville. I did not jerk or do some things I have seen but I have fallen under the power of the Spirit. I do not do curtsy drop.In the late 80’s my wife and I went to a meeting where the Businessman from Cleveland who became a popular speaker (cannot remember his name now) was scheduled to speak.Little did I know T.L. Lowery would actually be the speaker. Bro. Lowery was laying hands on folks and they were falling all over the place. We went forward, I had my mind made up that I was not going to fall just because others were. My wife and I stood side by side with our arms around each other. Bro. Lowery laid one hand on her and one on me. We fell together. After the meeting she told me she also made up her mind to not do a curtsy drop. All I can say is we just fell. I must say we both experienced the power of the Spirit that night.I never go expecting to fall, I go expecting to experience His presence________________Recorded Sermons @ http://www.pastorwiley.com
In my post, I am not belittling our heritage. I had loving parents who were dedicated Christians. In my early life the only people/kids I could feel comfortable with was COG kids. We were in the same boat, OUTSIDERS (No sports, no shows, no. etc….) A lot I could say, but I definitely will not argue the point of ‘learned behavior’. I’d better leave it at that, I am not very good at explaining my feeling________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
T L had big hands.Larry McDaniel had bigger hands – at least they felt that way to me. ________________
Learned behavior? What do you mean________________More of Him…less of me.twitter.com/camiracle77www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=691241499&ref=name
The Bible says ‘Let all things be done unto edifying.’ We are all emotional beings. The Bible talks about having joy and rejoicing. Someone can preach or pray enthusiastically, and everyone can be edified.But I don’t believe church should be a place for letting out emotion for emotions sake. For example, 10 minutes of shouting and not saying anything isn’t going to edify anyone. Speaking in tongues only edifies the speaker unless it is interpreted, too. I’d rather see spiritual gifts exercised in a way to edify others than long outbursts of emotion. Seeing someone swing from the chandeliers doesn’t edify anyone________________
I don’t know, Link, I remember when a few got edified one time when in the middle a one a them ole fashion gullywasher services, hey, ole Brother Flapjack Jones commenced runnin, jumped an grabbed the light fixture hangin in the middle aisle (closest thing to a chandelier we had), an started swingin on the thing. All was well till two other brothers jumped an grabbed it with him, an next thing I know the thing broke, the three brethren landed right in the middle a the altar area, which was packed with folk prayin. Well, when they landed it caused a big crashin sound, an some a them folk prayin thought it was the good Lord movin amongst em. 14 got saved at night, 14 got sanctified, 3 had broke legs, two broke arms, one got a split lip, one throwed his back out, an some visitors got up an walked out.
As you well know from your travels and life, there are always extremes.The difference almost certainly has to be discerned by the Spirit of God. There are people I’ve seen doing weird things that I absolutely felt were of the Lord. And then there are those who seem to be doing it to prove how spiritual they are, or to get people to think they are. It grates on my spirit to see such things.If it draws more attention to US than to the Master, it immediately becomes suspect. He must increase, we must decrease. I’ve seen about every form of shouting there is. And I’ve noticed that many times, folks in the same church shout the same way. Further, whites and blacks often shout differently, as there are distinctive ways that the black church worships.I think this is NOT because of lack of spirituality, but because they have learned how to express the feelings they have by watching others. The Spirit comes upon them and they don’t know what to do…so they express it as they saw the pastor’s wife expressing it.We’ve been around it long enough to know there is plenty of real. I’ve never shouted and I’ve never fallen out. Probably because I tend to express myself in tears rather than other ways. It’s just how God seems to work with me (though I did one time want to shout, but resisted, being too self-conscious…I trust I will not make that mistake again).
Very good comment my brother. In the OP I was not hinting these were ‘faking it’, but I do agree here that most were doing what they thought they were supposed to. In effect what Eddie was referring to methinks, a learned behavior. Because different churches do worship different. Not all our churches had bench walkers.One of the best men I have ever known told me once on a Sunday Night God was blessing and folks were shouting and he took the mike and in his exuberance said, If you are not shouting now I about doubt your salvation.HE said the next day one of the sweetest most Godly women in his church called and asked him to please come to her house. When he arrived he could tell she had been crying. She explained she had been up all night crying and praying that God would make her shout because all I can ever do is hold my hands up and cry.He asked her why in the world would she do that?She reminded him of what he had said.He said I fell on my knees and begged her forgiveness. Sister you are the closest thing to Christlike that I have every pastored, God wasn’t within a million miles of that statement, Please forgive me. ________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
I had a conversation online once with a COG guy on facebook who seemed to think being Pentecostal was about shouting and having church services that looked like football games. I’ve heard preachers tell the audience that people get more excited at a football game that they do at church. But I heard a man from a non-Pentecostal church comment about that. He said, Why should church look like a football game? Reading the Bible, I don’t come away with the idea that church is supposed to be about it about expressing emotions or looking like a football game. I’m not saying we have to be robots and that we can’t express some emotion, rejoice, etc. But it sure seems like some folks have way too much of a focus on outbursts of emotion and associate it with being spiritual. Back in the early 1990’s when I was in my early 20’s still in college, my family moved to a small community in Georgia. If you drove one way, there was a Congregational Holiness church several miles up the road. If you drove the other, there was a COG. We’d moved a number of times over the years and probably spent more time in the A/G or an independent full gospel church than anywhere else. But we’d gone to COGs before, but never a CH church.We visited the CH church. One woman there got really excited and was shouting and making noise. Maybe she snorted a bit, too. She was overwhelmed with emotion. She seemed to think of that as something holy. She wasn’t shouting anything.I’d probably been in churches that had some shouting, all at once, praise God. Shout praises to the Lord or something like that. I suppose there are some Pentecostal people who think of shouting as something that happens to you, where you are overcome with emotion and are supposed to shout or you are sinning if you don’t. I don’t think like that because I didn’t encounter that idea in the Pentecostal churches I went to in m formative years (fortunately) and it’s not in the Bible. If Paul would tell believers that the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets about a real gift that is clearly Biblical and can clearly edify others like prophesying, then why should I think it’s really spiritual for someone to shout and grunt and groan really loud in church when no one understands and is edified? In some churches, you might see a woman get all excited and jerk and dance a bit, have a ‘praise break’ and hear someone say ‘she got the Holy Ghost.’ I think we ought to be careful about that. If someone gets excited and dances, that doesn’t mean they got the Holy Ghost. And some of the people there might think excitement and dancing is the Holy Ghost. I’m not against dancing or praising. But I don’t see where the Bible teaches that uncontrollable dancing is a work of the Holy Ghost.I’ve heard of people who believed its wrong to dance unless you dance in the Spirit, which is supposed to just kind of happen to you. But the passages in the Psalms that tell people to dance command them to do it. That sort of implies they do it by choice, not because their limbs are moving and they can’t control it. I do think some folks get off base in thinking that if a church isn’t the same style they are used to or isn’t excited enough that it is a ‘dead church.’ People can be calm and sing songs sincerely to the Lord. A church doesn’t have to look like the set of Hee Haw on crack to be spiritual. It doesn’t have to have an excited Appalachian style service with a fast blue grass or southern gospel band playing to be spiritual. We shouldn’t judge other churches for having a different style or for not being quite as emotional. Some Pentecostals think that way. I think that may come from getting your Pentecostalism from ‘junk preachers say’ rather than the Bible. Some people seem to think of speaking in tongues as some kind of emotional outlet, that everyone is supposed to speak in tongues at the same time, and that that is really spiritual. I can’t find where the Bible teaches that church meetings are supposed to be made up of people using tongues as an individual emotional outlet, or dancing to blow off some emotions, or shouting to release emotions. Speaking in tongues in church is to be done in a way that edifies others, which means to be followed by an interpretation________________
I suppose some people’s Pentecostal worship could be something they’ve learned to do. But I also believe there is genuine worship that involves running, shouting, dancing, jerking, etc. As for its being Biblical, what do you think the disciples et al were doing on the Day of Pentecost for them to be supposed to be drunk? They were acting like they were drunk! When the Holy Ghost comes on someone, He can do more in 5 minutes than than we could do in 5 days. His presence makes all the difference. There is strength in corporate worship, just as there is in corporate prayer, that we don’t experience individually, IMHO. But I don’t think a run/shout/dance kinda service should be what it’s all about. We need the Word. We need balance. The Holy Spirit should be welcome in our services (which doesn’t necessarily mean running or shouting…it could be tears/worship/messages in tongues, etc) but there should also be order. As I’ve said before, it’s up to the pastor/leadership to make sure things don’t get out of hand. There are times for Pentecostal worship, and there are times to sit down and be quiet. I once heard a minister say he’d asked the Lord about a woman jerking in the service as the Spirit was moving. What he felt like the Lord spoke to him was that this woman’s body was feeling the power of God and her spirit was trying to break free of her body, but her body wouldn’t let her. That might sound crazy to you, but it made sense to me. Worship is much more than shouting and dancing, but I think we place our churches at a disadvantage if we dismiss it all as learned behavior. Sometimes people find great deliverance and breakthrough when they experience God’s power in this way. I’m not saying they should take over the service, but I’m saying it should be allowed if it’s appropriate________________More of Him…less of me.twitter.com/camiracle77www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=691241499&ref=name
I have been in the COG all my life. WE only moved 6 times in my 16 years at home. Every church was different. But they all at one time or the other had shouting services.I have attended maybe 100 COG’s in the past 15 years on the road and none had the types of services I knew in NC. BUT I felt the same spirit of love and fellowship in most of them. I had no doubt these folk were Christian. It is a fact to me that we have accepted a different attitude in our worship. When we were known as ‘Holy Rollers’ I always got the feeling away from COG people that we were considered Crazy or a Cult. WE were ‘tongue-talkers’ or ‘Holiness’ people.I honestly believe WE love the Lord as much. I believe we care about souls as much, but with a big difference in out worship!We gained nothing by shouting loud, then condemning ‘robed choirs’, church bulletins, makeup and hair. Giving dirty looks at a woman with make-up on or wearing ‘britches’.WE are definitely a different church today. No I do not think we were wrong, but our attitude was definitely leaning to the Pharisee, we looked at the sinner and said I thank God I am not like him/her, I dress holy etc…. JMH________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
That is a whole ‘nuther conversation, IMHO, Cojak. I agree. I respect the way I was brought up, but I’m not bound by it. I was horrified when someone told me that most people that have the look also have a superior attitude, whether they mean to or not. And looking back at myself, I can see that, which was NOT my intent.It doesn’t do any good to have the look if you treat people with a mean spirit________________More of Him…less of me.twitter.com/camiracle77www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=691241499&ref=name
Learned behavior? What do you mean? Learned behavior is simply doing something like and/or because you see someone else do it. Implies that the Holy Ghost has no originality. Seen the same thing for 74 years of life. What starts as genuine worship falling into the very thing the nominal church folk always accused us of; unrestrained emotionalism.