OTCP, are you in support of this doctrine statement? What would you do to deal with those who openly violate this position and promote drinking in moderation? It seems that if the statement/study is an end point and there is no consequences for behavior contrary to the conclusions, what’s the point of the statement. It becomes another well-crafted document that is filed away with a number of other well-crafted doctrine statements. Will there be instructions to read this document in every local church during a service or business conference? Will it simply appear in an Assembly Minutes and than be shelved in the Vatican Library (General Offices) along with other past position papers?I’m not trying to incite you on this issue, but practice and policy seem to be disjointed these days. An example is Initial Evidence, a key doctrine of most Pentecostal denominations and a touchstone of the Pentecostal Charismatic Church of North America fellowship. Yet, many ministers and local church within this denominations have long since moved away from this doctrine.What will come of this? Will it be enforced?
Dr. Arrington’s brilliant defense:The author says Dr. Arrington brilliantly defends total abstinence. In his defense of tithing, he omitted the LARGEST passage in the Bible on tithing (one in which God OK’s alcohol), I’m not surprised that he has done it again. Any fair treatment of a subject will fairly consider the scriptures FOR and AGAINST a matter if there are such. Here is God’s OT position on strong drink:Deut 14:26You may spend the money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen, or sheep, or
Right on OTCP.And this thread is even better when you can see the rank amateur Brad trying and failing miserably, as usual, to refute it________________
and I think there is a good case for the wisdom of complete abstinence, but I think Brad is correct in pointing out the weakness of the scriptural foundations for the argument made in the position paper.
Dr Arrington, NBF and others apparently think that God doesn’t know how to distinguish between wine and grape juice. Well, He does…Num 6:3he shall abstain from
I don’t feel like I have a dog in this hunt, it’s not a topic I worry about and I am not Church of God, but – IMHO Brad used the scriptures to speak for themselves________________areyoureadyfortherapture.blogspot.com/
Do what you thinks best Brad, but for those who wish to live for Christ according to their convictions (such as the Amish or abstainers or pacifist, etc), you’re condemnation of their spiritual sacrifice has no value.
I have never had a single sip of alcohol. And I never intend to. But there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY that we can derive complete abstinence as a command of scripture…unless you are a Nazarite.Period.Yes, I believe we SHOULD be abstinent. But that is my belief based on the dangers that drink holds for those who abuse it. It is NOT based on a clear-cut statement in scripture.DRUNKENESS is contray to God. But drinking, in and of itself, is not. To say that Jesus turned the water into wine…but didn’t drink any Himself holds no weight. You might as well claim that David was not guilty of Uriah’s death since he didn’t kill him by his own hand.I do believe it is perfectly acceptable to say, The Church of God, because of the unworthy elements that surround or come from the drinking of alcohol, holds that our members should not drink at all. Not because it is, in and of itself, a sin, but because of the strong moral danger that it presents.Consider those Islamic beheading videos we have heard about. It may not be a sin at all to watch them. But as for me, I refuse to even consider it. Why? Because it cannot be unseen. Because it can contaminate my thought life for the rest of my life. Because it is contrary, it seems, to the the notion of whatsoever things are pure. The same goes for alcohol. It may not be a sin, but it can certainly become one. It can certainly take us to places that are utterly at odds with the love of Jesus.
I must agree with Aaron. I had a brother, a brother in law and several friends who were alcoholics. Some even died very young. I know first hand the terrible things this can do to a life. I have even drank too much personally in my own life, thanks to God’s grace I am still his, but I must agree with Aaron here. It is best never to drink but total abstinence is not taught in the scripture. ________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
I must agree with Aaron. I had a brother, a brother in law and several friends who were alcoholics. Some even died very young. I know first hand the terrible things this can do to a life. I have even drank too much personally in my own life, thanks to God’s grace I am still HIS, but I must agree with Aaron here. It is best never to drink but total abstinence is not taught in the scripture. ________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
Church of God position papers are always going to come up to support the current COG position which is abstinence. The men doing this paper are good men but they did not choose to look at other scriptures that show that drinking in moderation is not condenmened in the Bible. Even in a court of law you are susposed to hear all the evidence before making a conclusion. Brad won and BTW I do not drink strong drink.This is a good example of why we need to know the scriptures because even the Church higharchy can lead us astray.
Sparty, I wish they had said all things are not expedient. However, they didn’t. They affirmed the disqualification from ministry and membership those who engage in lawful activity and took a position not supported by scripture________________I’m not saved because I’m good. I’m saved because He’s good!My website: http://www.bradfreeman.comMy blog: bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/
Thanks Mat,I don’t condemn anyone who is being led by the Spirit. Romans 14is clear that we are not look down on anyone whose faith is weak (who have rules about what they are allowed to eat and drink). To their own Master, they stand or fall and they will stand. My concern is that these writers perpetuate a position that disqualifies Jesus from ministry or membership in the COG…if He wanted to join.We don’t live FOR Christ, He lives through us…we live AS Christ________________I’m not saved because I’m good. I’m saved because He’s good!My website: http://www.bradfreeman.comMy blog: bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/
I don’t think it’s healthy for everyone to have to state this prior to offering an opinion — but, for the record, I also practice abstinence and would advise others to do the same.Here’s my question to those arguing in favor of this position paper. I hope it can be answered as the simple question it is.The denial of access to the Lord’s Table is an act of discipline ordered against proclaiming believers who engage in persistent, unrepentant sin. I’m not trying to make any connection between alcohol and the wine of Communion. I’m asking how serious you are about believing this is a biblical injunction.
First – my admiration and honor of Dr Arrington know no bounds – he is a mentor to me and I am a disciple of his.Second – like others on here – I do not drink. I have offered reasons for that at other times (on this forum).Much of what this position paper contained is also contained Dr Arrington’s contribution to the book, Issues in Contemporary Pentecostalism, in the chapter entitled,
Looking on the COG website under Practical Commitments:ADDICTION AND ENSLAVEMENTOne of the primary benefits of our liberty in Christ is freedom from the domination of negative forces (John 8:32, 36; Romans 6:14; 8:2). We are counseled not to put ourselves again under bondage (Galatians 5:1). Therefore, a Christian must totally abstain from all alcoholic beverages and other habit-forming and mood-altering chemical substances and refrain from the use of tobacco in any form, marijuana and all other addictive substances, and further, must refrain from any activity (such as gambling or gluttony) which defiles the body as the temple of God or which dominates and enslaves the spirit that has been made free in Christ (Proverbs 20:1; 23:20-35; Isaiah 28:7; 1 Corinthians 3:17; 5:11; 6:10; 2 Corinthians 7:1; James 1:21).My position is, if there is liberty on alcoholic beverages such as beer and wine (as some argue for), I see little to no scripture addressing tobacco, marijuana or even opiate based substances. If the line between sinner and saint is drawn at the line of intoxication, then the individual can walk up to the door of indulging as much as he desires as long as he does not pass over the threshold into the house of drunkenness. Its similar to the old game ring and run, where you go to a house, ring the doorbell and run away before the strongman of the house opens the door and catches you. If one generation can drink as long as they do not get drunk and profess Christ, the next generation can smoke marijuana as long as they don’t get stoned. You tell me I’m wrong for not drinking and I’ll tell your kids that its OK with Jesus to smoke a joint. A term used when I was young for those who did not drink was that of being a lightweight, in the since that we were somehow weaker and less experienced in the things of the world. Some today say those Christians who believe in abstinence are spiritual lightweights. I say a commitment to abstinence as a Christian is a radical spiritual position. Some Christians seek the lukewarm life of being like the culture, radicals seek to transform the culture for Christ (in my opinion).As has been said, some Christians today know more about brewing beer than the know about the Bible.
OTCP, are you in support of this doctrine statement? What would you do to deal with those who openly violate this position and promote drinking in moderation? It seems that if the statement/study is an end point and there is no consequences for behavior contrary to the conclusions, what’s the point of the statement. It becomes another well-crafted document that is filed away with a number of other well-crafted doctrine statements. Will there be instructions to read this document in every local church during a service or business conference? Will it simply appear in an Assembly Minutes and than be shelved in the Vatican Library (General Offices) along with other past position papers?I’m not trying to incite you on this issue, but practice and policy seem to be disjointed these days. An example is Initial Evidence, a key doctrine of most Pentecostal denominations and a touchstone of the Pentecostal Charismatic Church of North America fellowship. Yet, many ministers and local church within this denominations have long since moved away from this doctrine.What will come of this? Will it be enforced?
Dr. Arrington’s brilliant defense:The author says Dr. Arrington brilliantly defends total abstinence. In his defense of tithing, he omitted the LARGEST passage in the Bible on tithing (one in which God OK’s alcohol), I’m not surprised that he has done it again. Any fair treatment of a subject will fairly consider the scriptures FOR and AGAINST a matter if there are such. Here is God’s OT position on strong drink:Deut 14:26You may spend the money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen, or sheep, or
Right on OTCP.And this thread is even better when you can see the rank amateur Brad trying and failing miserably, as usual, to refute it________________
and I think there is a good case for the wisdom of complete abstinence, but I think Brad is correct in pointing out the weakness of the scriptural foundations for the argument made in the position paper.
Dr Arrington, NBF and others apparently think that God doesn’t know how to distinguish between wine and grape juice. Well, He does…Num 6:3he shall abstain from
I don’t feel like I have a dog in this hunt, it’s not a topic I worry about and I am not Church of God, but – IMHO Brad used the scriptures to speak for themselves________________areyoureadyfortherapture.blogspot.com/
Re: I’ll go with the wise guys….
WOW! I am shocked by the tone of this post________________areyoureadyfortherapture.blogspot.com/
Do what you thinks best Brad …
Do what you thinks best Brad, but for those who wish to live for Christ according to their convictions (such as the Amish or abstainers or pacifist, etc), you’re condemnation of their spiritual sacrifice has no value.
I have never had a single sip of alcohol. And I never intend to. But there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY that we can derive complete abstinence as a command of scripture…unless you are a Nazarite.Period.Yes, I believe we SHOULD be abstinent. But that is my belief based on the dangers that drink holds for those who abuse it. It is NOT based on a clear-cut statement in scripture.DRUNKENESS is contray to God. But drinking, in and of itself, is not. To say that Jesus turned the water into wine…but didn’t drink any Himself holds no weight. You might as well claim that David was not guilty of Uriah’s death since he didn’t kill him by his own hand.I do believe it is perfectly acceptable to say, The Church of God, because of the unworthy elements that surround or come from the drinking of alcohol, holds that our members should not drink at all. Not because it is, in and of itself, a sin, but because of the strong moral danger that it presents.Consider those Islamic beheading videos we have heard about. It may not be a sin at all to watch them. But as for me, I refuse to even consider it. Why? Because it cannot be unseen. Because it can contaminate my thought life for the rest of my life. Because it is contrary, it seems, to the the notion of whatsoever things are pure. The same goes for alcohol. It may not be a sin, but it can certainly become one. It can certainly take us to places that are utterly at odds with the love of Jesus.
I must agree with Aaron. I had a brother, a brother in law and several friends who were alcoholics. Some even died very young. I know first hand the terrible things this can do to a life. I have even drank too much personally in my own life, thanks to God’s grace I am still his, but I must agree with Aaron here. It is best never to drink but total abstinence is not taught in the scripture. ________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
I must agree with Aaron. I had a brother, a brother in law and several friends who were alcoholics. Some even died very young. I know first hand the terrible things this can do to a life. I have even drank too much personally in my own life, thanks to God’s grace I am still HIS, but I must agree with Aaron here. It is best never to drink but total abstinence is not taught in the scripture. ________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
Church of God position papers are always going to come up to support the current COG position which is abstinence. The men doing this paper are good men but they did not choose to look at other scriptures that show that drinking in moderation is not condenmened in the Bible. Even in a court of law you are susposed to hear all the evidence before making a conclusion. Brad won and BTW I do not drink strong drink.This is a good example of why we need to know the scriptures because even the Church higharchy can lead us astray.
Sparty, I wish they had said all things are not expedient. However, they didn’t. They affirmed the disqualification from ministry and membership those who engage in lawful activity and took a position not supported by scripture________________I’m not saved because I’m good. I’m saved because He’s good!My website: http://www.bradfreeman.comMy blog: bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/
Thanks Mat,I don’t condemn anyone who is being led by the Spirit. Romans 14is clear that we are not look down on anyone whose faith is weak (who have rules about what they are allowed to eat and drink). To their own Master, they stand or fall and they will stand. My concern is that these writers perpetuate a position that disqualifies Jesus from ministry or membership in the COG…if He wanted to join.We don’t live FOR Christ, He lives through us…we live AS Christ________________I’m not saved because I’m good. I’m saved because He’s good!My website: http://www.bradfreeman.comMy blog: bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/
I don’t think it’s healthy for everyone to have to state this prior to offering an opinion — but, for the record, I also practice abstinence and would advise others to do the same.Here’s my question to those arguing in favor of this position paper. I hope it can be answered as the simple question it is.The denial of access to the Lord’s Table is an act of discipline ordered against proclaiming believers who engage in persistent, unrepentant sin. I’m not trying to make any connection between alcohol and the wine of Communion. I’m asking how serious you are about believing this is a biblical injunction.
First – my admiration and honor of Dr Arrington know no bounds – he is a mentor to me and I am a disciple of his.Second – like others on here – I do not drink. I have offered reasons for that at other times (on this forum).Much of what this position paper contained is also contained Dr Arrington’s contribution to the book, Issues in Contemporary Pentecostalism, in the chapter entitled,
Looking on the COG website under Practical Commitments:ADDICTION AND ENSLAVEMENTOne of the primary benefits of our liberty in Christ is freedom from the domination of negative forces (John 8:32, 36; Romans 6:14; 8:2). We are counseled not to put ourselves again under bondage (Galatians 5:1). Therefore, a Christian must totally abstain from all alcoholic beverages and other habit-forming and mood-altering chemical substances and refrain from the use of tobacco in any form, marijuana and all other addictive substances, and further, must refrain from any activity (such as gambling or gluttony) which defiles the body as the temple of God or which dominates and enslaves the spirit that has been made free in Christ (Proverbs 20:1; 23:20-35; Isaiah 28:7; 1 Corinthians 3:17; 5:11; 6:10; 2 Corinthians 7:1; James 1:21).My position is, if there is liberty on alcoholic beverages such as beer and wine (as some argue for), I see little to no scripture addressing tobacco, marijuana or even opiate based substances. If the line between sinner and saint is drawn at the line of intoxication, then the individual can walk up to the door of indulging as much as he desires as long as he does not pass over the threshold into the house of drunkenness. Its similar to the old game ring and run, where you go to a house, ring the doorbell and run away before the strongman of the house opens the door and catches you. If one generation can drink as long as they do not get drunk and profess Christ, the next generation can smoke marijuana as long as they don’t get stoned. You tell me I’m wrong for not drinking and I’ll tell your kids that its OK with Jesus to smoke a joint. A term used when I was young for those who did not drink was that of being a lightweight, in the since that we were somehow weaker and less experienced in the things of the world. Some today say those Christians who believe in abstinence are spiritual lightweights. I say a commitment to abstinence as a Christian is a radical spiritual position. Some Christians seek the lukewarm life of being like the culture, radicals seek to transform the culture for Christ (in my opinion).As has been said, some Christians today know more about brewing beer than the know about the Bible.