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What would you do?

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I have an elderly lady in my church who has a son that sings and goes on mission trips to Africa several times a year. This lady has a heart condition and is very ill. I met with her son a few months ago and he said he would be back to visit his mom in August and asked if he could sing and give a testimony of his missionary trips in our Sunday morning service. I told him that he could… but a few weeks after meeting with him, his wife private message me on Facebook and said they have been divorce for 20 years, but she allowed him to move back in with her due her being in poor health and he takes her to her Dr. appointments. She said they do not sleep together and the only time they act married is when they go to church on Sunday.I asked him about what she wrote to me and he confirmed they are divorced and he wants to remarry her, but he said she won’t marry him unless he can prove to her that he can take care of her financially.I told him I will allow him to sing one song just because of his mother. She thinks the world of him and is very proud that he is doing missionary work. She tells me every Sunday that she can’t wait to hear her son sing in church. She has no idea of his private life and I’m not going to be the one to tell her about his marriage. If I don’t allow him to sing, she will have questions that isn’t for me to answer.He told me when he goes on these missionary trips, he goes with a team and he is mainly there for support, but does sing when he is asked.

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  3. Brother Long take them at their word , let him minister and sing a couple of songs if he wishes . God can use a man’s talents without him living as Close to the Lord as we would wish . In a small church it will probably go un noticed and it will minister to the Mother , That is my take on this situation . You by doing this will not require you to approve his actions at all . it will show that you have a kind heart and he may be a blessing . Does his wife attend your church and does she have confidence in his trying to please the Lord ?

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  5. Thanks Bro. Truman, he and his wife lives Pennsylvania. I have never met his wife and have only met him twice.

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What would you do?

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What would you do if you were in a meeting of Christians, many of them active in ministry, at a conference, and the one leading the meeting said it was okay to tell a new believer from a Buddhist background to continue to bow down to the statue of Buddha for a few months to keep the doors of relationship open with his family to win them to Christ?Would you speak up? The format is it is being conducted like a business meeting, maybe 20 people max________________

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  1. I believe coming out from among them and being separate from this align with water baptism is to be a public proclamation that old things have passed away and all things have become new. You are a new creature in Christ Jesus. One thing it will accomplish is their family saying, What does this mean?________________

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  2. What I did was say, NOOOO! in the meeting, then have a debate with him on the topic, basically. I had wondered if I were in a meeting where someone was preaching a really blasphemous ‘little gods’ sermon, or asked everyone to partake of communion in the name of the goddess Sophia (read about that once), would I speak up?I had a discussion during the break. He put my viewpoint in a bucket with a variety of old fashioned missions strategies, and associated his viewpoint with the idea of winning households and individuals. It was a strange conversation, as if he thought that bowing down to Buddha was the key to salvation for the Chinese, and he would tell the new believer to bow to Buddha to save the millions of Chinese who were going to Hell. My anti-idolatry viewpoint was the reason so many millions had gone to Hell, something like that.Something that bothered me about it was that I was the only one who spoke up when he said this. I knew some of the other people in the room, not really, really well. But I’d met them before. They were not native speakers of English, and I wonder if some of them were silent because they weren’t totally sure if he said what they thought he said, or if he meant what they thought he meant, or if they were just being more ‘polite’ than I am since they are Asians and from a more quiet culture. Two or three of them that I discussed it with seemed to agree with me on the topic. One of them summed up the contextualization issue on this point rather well, IMO, as long as you don’t sin. I knew the guy from a Facebook forum, an acquaintence of a friend of mine who had spent time in his country, actually. I told the Lord if he wanted me to address it online to let me know. I did last week. He even said the person who committed idolatry could pray and receive forgiveness. But supposedly, doing so is supposed to open the possibility to win more souls. He’s apparently one of these guys with an ‘insider movement’ philosophy. I think he has a doctorate, and used to teach at a Bible college. I was hoping he’d be open to reason and the word of God. I’m praying that he will lose influence with the folks around here and elsewhere if he doesn’t repent. I don’t know if I want to go to a conference if he’ll be there. If he promotes his idea again, I’ll likely oppose it again________________

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  3. You travel in interesting areas . Also hear some odd takes on Christianity, different from North Carolina/Florida……… Or is it?? Take care my friend, interesting conference________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/

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  4. I’d also probably take a quick read of the room. If the other ministers there looked like someone had passed gas in church, I might let it go. But I think there’s ample biblical precedent for respectfully but firmly confronting a statement like that, and doing it in the public forum in which it was made.

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  6. No, I didn’t drop to my knees and yell melodramatically. I remember him yelling ‘Kahn’. Maybe he yelled ‘No!’ too. The thing is with some of the Asians is they tend to be quiet and polite. I was surprised no one jumped in and backed me up. They told me later they opposed it. But if that happened if someone were speaking quickly in Indonesian in an accent I had a little trouble following, I might be a bit hesitant to jump in like that.I wasn’t a pulpit-pew scenario.Anyway, the guy is apparently pretty influential in certain countries. So I’m praying that he repent or lose influence________________

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  7. Heard a lot of preachers tell new believers to keep trying to overcome bad habits in their life such as smoking, drinking and cussing. They didn’t question where the new believer was saved.

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  8. If the early church saw it a necessity to abstain from meats offered to idols, how much more so the idols themselves. Jamieson-Fausset-Brown commentary:

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  10. It’s OK. Even under the old covenant, Naaman got a pass…Go in peace.2 Kings 5:18In this matter may the Lord pardon your servant: when my master goes into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leans on my hand and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, when I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, the Lord pardon your servant in this matter.” 19 He said to him, “Go in peace.” So he departed from him some distance.Under the new covenant, Paul shaved his head to reach Jews. Acts 18:18,1________________I’m not saved because I’m good. I’m saved because He’s good!My website: http://www.bradfreeman.comMy blog: bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/

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  11. It’s OK. Even under the old covenant, Naaman got a pass…Go in peace.2 Kings 5:18In this matter may the Lord pardon your servant: when my master goes into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leans on my hand and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, when I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, the Lord pardon your servant in this matter.” 19 He said to him, “Go in peace.” So he departed from him some distance.Under the new covenant, Paul shaved his head to reach Jews. Acts 18:18,19 Food for thought coming from a different angle, but still something to think about. Not sure the ‘head shaving’ equals bowing to Budda though. Maybe Being all things to win many……….. ________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/

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  12. It’s OK. Even under the old covenant, Naaman got a pass…Go in peace.2 Kings 5:18In this matter may the Lord pardon your servant: when my master goes into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leans on my hand and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, when I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, the Lord pardon your servant in this matter.” 19 He said to him, “Go in peace.” So he departed from him some distance.Under the new covenant, Paul shaved his head to reach Jews. Acts 18:18,19 Food for thought coming from a different angle, but still something to think about. Not sure the ‘head shaving’ equals bowing to Budda though. Maybe Being all things to win many……….. During our conversation, between the two of us, he mentioned Naaman. Two counter-points to that:1. Naaman was helping his master, not worshipping an idol himself.2. Paul would later say that in the past God overlooked idolatry, but now is calling all men to repent.We might also add that Elisha was not God. ‘God in peace’ is not the same thing as a ‘Thus saith the Lord’ endorsement. No, shaving head in accordance with an ordinance that Yahweh gave for making a vow to Yahweh is not the same as bowing to Buddha. Paul’s head shaving may have had to do with not encumbering himself with the additional unsworn hair. We don’t know if he left the temple shaved or hairy. You could argue it both ways. The man who arrested him thought he was an Egyptian, so that may be an argument that he was shaved. But you can also argue from his account that he didn’t finish the ceremony. He may have been quite hairy the rest of his life.The man I spoke with seemed to exalt missiology over the Bible. He said the new converts could ask for forgiveness after bowing to an idol, but was in favor of it because he was convinced it would win souls. He was passionate about it as if bowing to Buddha was the key to soul winning. This is one of those areas where outcome based ethics leads to really bad conclusions. But I don’t believe this theory that bowing to Buddha is a key to conversion is accurate________________

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  14. It’s OK. Even under the old covenant, Naaman got a pass…Go in peace.2 Kings 5:18In this matter may the Lord pardon your servant: when my master goes into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leans on my hand and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, when I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, the Lord pardon your servant in this matter.” 19 He said to him, “Go in peace.” So he departed from him some distance.Under the new covenant, Paul shaved his head to reach Jews. Acts 18:18,19 Food for thought coming from a different angle, but still something to think about. Not sure the ‘head shaving’ equals bowing to Budda though. Maybe Being all things to win many……….. During our conversation, between the two of us, he mentioned Naaman. Two counter-points to that:1. Naaman was helping his master, not worshipping an idol himself.2. Paul would later say that in the past God overlooked idolatry, but now is calling all men to repent.We might also add that Elisha was not God. ‘God in peace’ is not the same thing as a ‘Thus saith the Lord’ endorsement. No, shaving head in accordance with an ordinance that Yahweh gave for making a vow to Yahweh is not the same as bowing to Buddha. Paul’s head shaving may have had to do with not encumbering himself with the additional unsworn hair. We don’t know if he left the temple shaved or hairy. You could argue it both ways. The man who arrested him thought he was an Egyptian, so that may be an argument that he was shaved. But you can also argue from his account that he didn’t finish the ceremony. He may have been quite hairy the rest of his life.The man I spoke with seemed to exalt missiology over the Bible. He said the new converts could ask for forgiveness after bowing to an idol, but was in favor of it because he was convinced it would win souls. He was passionate about it as if bowing to Buddha was the key to soul winning. This is one of those areas where outcome based ethics leads to really bad conclusions. But I don’t believe this theory that bowing to Buddha is a key to conversion is accurate. Right on link.You did the right thing – Naaman doesn’t work here as these guys are doing it willingly.I am tired of everything goes Christianity________________

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  15. If the new convert is WORSHIPING Buddha (I don’t believe Buddhists worship Buddha), that is OF COURSE wrong. If it is a matter of simply being respectful, as was with Naaman, I’m not going to lose any sleep.Consider this: If you were invited to a meal with a Muslim family, would you not show respect by, say, keeping silent while their prayer of thanks is prayed? Would you, to show your Christian bonafides, draw a picture of Mohammed just to aggravate them?And if a Muslim came to your house and, when it was time to pray, simply bowed his head and showed reverence/respect for your Christian prayer, would you believe he had gotten saved? That he now rejected Islam?Of course not.Yes, in an ideal world, that Buddhist would never see, think about, and certainly not bow before a Buddhist statue. But in the real world, sometimes things are more complicated than that. Naaman’s issue was based on the fact that, even though he acknowledged Elisha’s God as the true God, he wanted leave to maintain a modicum respect for his king’s beliefs.Paul said something along the lines of If someone puts food before you, but doesn’t tell you it has been offered to an idol, ask no questions and eat. But if they TELL you that it was offered to an idol, THEN refrain (NOT because you would be worshipping the idol, since an idol is nothing).Americans seldom have had to wrestle with such things. About the worst in living memory would be Pentecostals being castigated by mainline churches. If I visit a Mormon temple, I’m not going to start writing on the walls to desecrate the place and show my real Christianity. If an atheist comes to dinner at my house, I don’t assume he now magically believes in God because he simply shows respect by also bowing his head–or even saying amen with everyone else. So if we feel that way about unbelievers, why do we think we shouldn’t show similar respect?

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  16. I appreciate that thoughtful comment. Lots of food for thought for us who like to read opinions. YOu inject some very good points. I am enjoying this. I think it is a great post for comments. THANK________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/

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  17. I am sorry I haven’t traveled in the area of the world Link is in. If I remember right he is in Indonesia (?sp). We have never traveled in that area and at our age probably never will. Wish I had thought of it earlier. ________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/

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What would you do?

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Church family of 30+ years has a child die in a car accident and the family wants the funeral at the churchIt is your grandchild’s first birthday and a party is scheduled at the church.The food for the family (after funeral) will overlap grandchild’s birthday party

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  2. Consider that if it is your grandchild’s FIRST birthday party, it’s really about the adults in the room and not the child, since he/she is going to be too young to know what it’s about or remember it.That being the case (and even if the child was ten years old), surely the importance of that matter comes down on the side of the bereaved family? Your grandchild won’t remember if you don’t have a party…but the bereaved family will never forget if you fail them at this horrific time (and time of year).

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  3. First, I am not a pastorTo be clear, this is a scenario that happened. I wanted to get other pastors opinion.The pastors family choose the the grandchild’s birthday and moved the food to a different church. That crushed the family

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  4. Well, then, everyone, to some extent or another, has come down on the side of the bereaved family. The pastor is likely now paying for the decision he made.

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  6. First, I imagine every pastor or minister on this board is very clear that a funeral should have precedence over a birthday party for a baby, right? So why didn’t that pastor cancel or reschedule the birthday party like all of us seem to think he should have?What we don’t have is CONTEXT.If I may side with the pastor for just a moment, is it possible that this family had been members for 30+ years, but did not actually attend? Was their relationship with the church only a tenuous one, or were they regulars in good standing, etc.?Is it possible that this family had done everything in their power to wreck the pastor, his family, and/or the church? Was it a last minute thing–i.e., they were going to do it at another church, but then, last minute, decided they wanted it there, after the birthday party had been given the go-ahead?

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  7. Yes there were in good standingNo, they had done nothing against the pastor or churchThey wanted it all to be at their church…..funeral and dinner. Extended family members had at one point attended that church too

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  9. Sounds like a good argument for having a group of elders and not just one face that represents the church. Was the pastor responsible for the party somehow, the person organizing it? I would think the funeral would be the right choice, or at least attending part of it, and dropping by to visit relatives for part of their party. If the pastor conducted the funeral, then spent some time in the fellowship hall, left, and came back, i don’t see how that would crush people.Was the pastor the only person who could lock the fellowship hall or something like that________________

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  10. Well if the situation is as straight forward as Chesty says, and I have no reason to doubt it, I would inform the pastor we were looking for another church or when a voting time came, he would not get my vote. I would never stay and be a burr under his saddle, if I could not keep my mouth shut, I would leave. And I can relate to the one phone call. In the incident I am familiar with. The pastor visited the home (during the families working hours) when no one answered the door bell he left a note on his card that he had wanted to explain the situation. That was it.I normally would not believe any ‘thinking pastor’ would even consider such a decision. BUT since I witnessed an educated, pretty logical pastor make a stupid decision and it has probably cost him a limit paying church.It must be something in the water that dumbs down seemingly smart leaders. ________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/

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  11. If the rolls were reversed and it was the pastor’s one-year old grandchild who had died, what would he expect the church to do?Increasingly, it seems that some pastors try to build the local church with the idea that they and their family is the primary interest of the membership. They think the members live vicariously through their experiences – such as speaking at conferences/revivals, or taking luxury vacations, or driving an expense car, or living in an upscale neighborhood, sending their kids to the best private schools, etc. I find most of us in ministry are not personally that interesting that members could feel better about themselves by us living to please ourselves and them paying for it. There will come a day for this pastor’s family, it may not be the death of a child, perhaps it will be the loss of a vote. They will not blame themselves, they will blame the church, the denomination and perhaps God. They will be wrong.

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  12. That is exactly what happened. Cojak, I am sure you have seen a lot of situations where a pastor has made a dumb decision to make folks mad and threaten to leave. Trivial stuff but a dumb decision

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  13. Personally I don’t see how a pastor could make a decision like this. Who would choose to allow a grandchild’s birthday party to exclude a grieving family from being in their church at such a time? Am I to assume similar things go on in this church?Why are there so many extremes in our churches? I see some churches that abuse their pastors and families and others where the pastor takes his liberty with the flock.

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  14. I agree that the party should have been rescheduled, but perhaps the pastor was stuck in the middle and made to feel guilty that he was choosing the church over his family. What I see in FB groups and here is that the younger pastors (especially) are appalled that anyone would choose church obligations over family obligations. I know a lot of older pastors have a lot of regret that they have chosen church over family & have lost relationships and children turning from God because the Church always came first. Those days seem to be pretty much gone, and not all of it is bad. Of course, there needs to be a balance between the two. Not all one or all the other.The grieving family should have been allowed to have the funeral there. Moving the venue for the party or rescheduling the time should have been done, unless there is more to the story than we know. Perhaps some church members could reach out to the family and try to bring healing in this rift, if they will not allow the pastor to reach out to them. Sad situation________________More of Him…less of me.twitter.com/camiracle77www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=691241499&ref=name

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