If so, then double predestination won’t fly very easily. And while that may not be enough to defeat every element of TULIP, it does enough to not allow it to stand intact.
I’m personally not a fan of internet debates about doctrinal disagreements within the family of faith, so while I probably won’t be participating much here I am also glad at the prospect of seeing serious theological discussion on Acts.That said, there are two books I’d highly recommend to anyone who wants to go beyond shallow proof-texting and think seriously and deeply about the ordo salutis and the working of regeneration in Christians. Those books are For Calvinism
Aaron, my brother! Do you think that no one, from Calvin to Zwingli to Edwards to Spurgeon to Knox to everyone else, ever stopped to think about 2 Peter 3:9? That no one ever stopped to say, Hey, guys, wait a second. What about 2 Peter 3:9, doesn’t that sort of put the kibosh on the whole thing? I’m grateful for energetic, reasoned, theological arguments against Calvinism. In my opinion, Olson is about as good as it gets on that front. But don’t you think it’s kind of shallow to look at a debate that’s waged between men of God for hundreds of years, proof text one verse, and say it disproves the whole thing?The Calvinist response to this verse is trivial. Peter is writing to Christians, speaking of God’s sureness in securing the salvation of all Christ’s church before Christ’s return. The second-person pronoun is brought out in more modern translations (ESV, ASV, AMP, HCSB, NET, NIV, NLT, RSV) and in literal translations like Young’s. For more on 2 Peter 3:9specifically, see http://www.patheos.com/blogs/chorusinthechaos/2-peter-3-9-doesnt-refute-calvinism/
Joking.Of course others have made the argument! And every single one of them was right.To say it was written to Christians is to say, in so many words, Those of you who are not going to perish (since you are Christians)…God is not willing that you perish. Clearly, that is a senseless statement, very close to a tautology.Here’s the thing:. Anyone who is determined to hold to Calvinism will reject any argument to the contrary. But having debated this sort of thing for 30 years, I became convinced that while elements of Calvinism have value, there is simply no way it holds up under the numerous issues that scriptures raise against it.
Having been born and raised in a very stout Southern Baptist community.Having heard once saved, always saved all of my life.Having debated the issue on numerous occasions.I just tell ’em to read the book of Hebrews.If they don’t get it, I can’t help ’em________________Charles A. HutchinsSenior Pastor SPWCCongregational Church of Godwww.spwc.church
1. Hebrews 6:4-8- For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. 2. Hebrews 10:26-34- For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.3. 2 Peter 2:20-22- For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. 4. Specific Sins – Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9) Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:19) 5. Matthew 7:21-23- Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity 6. 1 Corinthians 9:23-27- And this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you. Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway[adokimos (ad-ok’-ee-mos); unapproved, rejected; worthless (literally or morally): 7. Depart From the Faith – 1 Tim 4:1-3- Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. Depart – aphistemi (af-is’-tay-mee); remove, instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.: (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.Repent – 8. Revelations 2:5 – Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.Rev 3:2-3- Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
since they can’t receive the truth that Calvinism is wrong.It’s just me, but really, is ANYONE going to be surprised if there are no Calvinists that are saved? Not me—besides, they deserve it for being Calvinists.
I could do a similar list of proof texts like MI6 has provided (he sure pulled a gotcha by asking a question he already knew the answers to ) on the side of Calvinism but I won’t. Cut & pasting proof texts becomes very cumbersome. Let’s try looking at one verse at a time. Since you offered the book of Hebrews, let’s look at the first one:1. Hebrews 6:4-8- For it is
Reformed theology tends to be based more on examining the flow and argument of larger blocks of Scripture rather than citing a few verses in isolation to serve as proof texts.Some good places to look for this would be Genesis 37-50; Exodus 4-14; Isaiah 40-48; John 6, 10-12, & 17; Romans 9-11; and Ephesians 1-2& 4.Some useful theological terms to understand for anyone interested in thinking more deeply about this topic: compatibilism, libertarian free will, visible church/invisible church, monergism, synergism
I always struggled with Romans 9-11as well. My mother-in-law, whom I adore, left an abusive, legalistic Calvinist church with her family when my wife was a teenager, and she’s always had a firm link in her mind between the ungodliness she experienced and the doctrines of grace in general. As I began to warm to the doctrines of grace 2-3 years ago, she and I would talk now and then. She’s a wonderful, faithful believer and a diligent student of her Bible. I’d bring up Romans 9-11and she’d tell me that
God is not willing that ANY should perish….
If so, then double predestination won’t fly very easily. And while that may not be enough to defeat every element of TULIP, it does enough to not allow it to stand intact.
I’m personally not a fan of internet debates about doctrinal disagreements within the family of faith, so while I probably won’t be participating much here I am also glad at the prospect of seeing serious theological discussion on Acts.That said, there are two books I’d highly recommend to anyone who wants to go beyond shallow proof-texting and think seriously and deeply about the ordo salutis and the working of regeneration in Christians. Those books are For Calvinism
Aaron, my brother! Do you think that no one, from Calvin to Zwingli to Edwards to Spurgeon to Knox to everyone else, ever stopped to think about 2 Peter 3:9? That no one ever stopped to say, Hey, guys, wait a second. What about 2 Peter 3:9, doesn’t that sort of put the kibosh on the whole thing? I’m grateful for energetic, reasoned, theological arguments against Calvinism. In my opinion, Olson is about as good as it gets on that front. But don’t you think it’s kind of shallow to look at a debate that’s waged between men of God for hundreds of years, proof text one verse, and say it disproves the whole thing?The Calvinist response to this verse is trivial. Peter is writing to Christians, speaking of God’s sureness in securing the salvation of all Christ’s church before Christ’s return. The second-person pronoun is brought out in more modern translations (ESV, ASV, AMP, HCSB, NET, NIV, NLT, RSV) and in literal translations like Young’s. For more on 2 Peter 3:9specifically, see http://www.patheos.com/blogs/chorusinthechaos/2-peter-3-9-doesnt-refute-calvinism/
Joking.Of course others have made the argument! And every single one of them was right.To say it was written to Christians is to say, in so many words, Those of you who are not going to perish (since you are Christians)…God is not willing that you perish. Clearly, that is a senseless statement, very close to a tautology.Here’s the thing:. Anyone who is determined to hold to Calvinism will reject any argument to the contrary. But having debated this sort of thing for 30 years, I became convinced that while elements of Calvinism have value, there is simply no way it holds up under the numerous issues that scriptures raise against it.
Okay. Guess it’s just that simple, then.
Having been born and raised in a very stout Southern Baptist community.Having heard once saved, always saved all of my life.Having debated the issue on numerous occasions.I just tell ’em to read the book of Hebrews.If they don’t get it, I can’t help ’em________________Charles A. HutchinsSenior Pastor SPWCCongregational Church of Godwww.spwc.church
1. Hebrews 6:4-8- For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. 2. Hebrews 10:26-34- For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.3. 2 Peter 2:20-22- For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. 4. Specific Sins – Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9) Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:19) 5. Matthew 7:21-23- Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity 6. 1 Corinthians 9:23-27- And this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you. Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway[adokimos (ad-ok’-ee-mos); unapproved, rejected; worthless (literally or morally): 7. Depart From the Faith – 1 Tim 4:1-3- Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. Depart – aphistemi (af-is’-tay-mee); remove, instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.: (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.Repent – 8. Revelations 2:5 – Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.Rev 3:2-3- Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
since they can’t receive the truth that Calvinism is wrong.It’s just me, but really, is ANYONE going to be surprised if there are no Calvinists that are saved? Not me—besides, they deserve it for being Calvinists.
Yes, it’s absolutely terrible when someone thinks very highly of himself because of what he does or does not believe.
I could do a similar list of proof texts like MI6 has provided (he sure pulled a gotcha by asking a question he already knew the answers to ) on the side of Calvinism but I won’t. Cut & pasting proof texts becomes very cumbersome. Let’s try looking at one verse at a time. Since you offered the book of Hebrews, let’s look at the first one:1. Hebrews 6:4-8- For it is
It should also be noted that the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints is
Reformed theology tends to be based more on examining the flow and argument of larger blocks of Scripture rather than citing a few verses in isolation to serve as proof texts.Some good places to look for this would be Genesis 37-50; Exodus 4-14; Isaiah 40-48; John 6, 10-12, & 17; Romans 9-11; and Ephesians 1-2& 4.Some useful theological terms to understand for anyone interested in thinking more deeply about this topic: compatibilism, libertarian free will, visible church/invisible church, monergism, synergism
Romans 9-11had always been problematic for me as an Arminian, but I think John 6was when the proverbial light bulb came on for me.
I always struggled with Romans 9-11as well. My mother-in-law, whom I adore, left an abusive, legalistic Calvinist church with her family when my wife was a teenager, and she’s always had a firm link in her mind between the ungodliness she experienced and the doctrines of grace in general. As I began to warm to the doctrines of grace 2-3 years ago, she and I would talk now and then. She’s a wonderful, faithful believer and a diligent student of her Bible. I’d bring up Romans 9-11and she’d tell me that
Looks like it’s just you and me here, Da Sheik. MI6 is MIA.
Re: That’s because no one has the time to waste disproving tripe.
Son, diggin’ into tha Word every now and then’d be good for ya. Might even help ya ta get away from that Woffie/Bethel nonsense.