When I was in the business world, there was a problem that needed fixing, but no fixes were forthcoming. So I wrote a memo to upper management and advised them of the problem, since I was sure that once they knew, they would act.What they said changed my course of action. They said, We KNOW there’s a problem, but we don’t know the solution.And that was my signal to find the solution (I did).Don’t you think, my friend, that if Cleveland knew how to fix things, they would.? I guarantee you they know about the problem.
Must be blood moon time…Aaron Scott is right on here. No one has the solution – within our current framework. We’re like Sears – we want to be like Amazon – but don’t know how to get there from here________________
One might infer from the OP, that a simple change of leadership (likely the AB) will bring about dramatic change throughout a state. Change begins at the grass-roots level. Sam Walton understood this concept. Churches grow when leadership systems are in place and the laity are equipped to do ministry. Too many churches are waiting on SuperPastor to come flying in and make the church grow. That’s not how it typically happens unless the pastor already has a huge following.
De-centralization.It’s going to happen, one way or another.It’s the local congregations.They matter________________Charles A. HutchinsSenior Pastor SPWCCongregational Church of Godwww.spwc.church
How about some names and church names so we can fact check all of this?Hard to get riled up with a bunch of mumbo jumbo – saying nothing________________
OK…enough of the veiled cryptic inuendo.If you are talking about Illinois the fact is there are approximately 65 reporting churches. (www.illinoiscog.org/districts/) While I do not know the history, I would still say that you saying the CHurch of God is dangerlously close to losing an entire state! is a bit of dramatic overstatement.But that’s me… Last – have you accepted the invitation extended by the Illinois Bishop (on this forum) to call him and express your concerns or inquire for clarity?Have you called any of the leadership you’ve questioned?
Hey, I’ve got nothing to lose since I’m no longer a part of the good ole boy system… I mean the Church of God. I believe that it was mentioned previously that pastors in the state are secretly talking to one another saying that the overseer will be gone so to just wait. I’ve had several contact me to tell me that if I will be patient and wait until there is a change that they will see to it that my credentials are restored. They presuppose that I would want them back. I won’t say never but I seriously doubt that I would ever come back. I bled Church of God all of my life, but the last 5 months have opened my eyes to the real working behind the scenes.
Must be blood moon time…Aaron Scott is right on here. No one has the solution – within our current framework. We’re like Sears – we want to be like Amazon – but don’t know how to get there from here. Technology, well placed warehouses and home delivery, at least that Amazon. So, a networks for large churches which also deliver home ministry? Sears, surrendered their catalog advantage for large overhead brick and stick mall stores where the customer must travel to them. So, it was a you have to come to us if you want it approach.
Looking in from the outside, if SC is a pastor in that state (or any state) and wants to protect his ability to pastor a COG, he will think three times (at least) before calling anyone in admin, state or national unless he has a ‘name’ or ‘in’ family wise more so than the overseer.I am COG was born COG and I love it, but ‘facts is facts’ as my brother used to say.For the record I have NEVER had a problem with ANY COG official and have known many. BUT I have good friends that have had ‘run ins’ and regretted it. PS: I think that is the reason for ‘pen names’ here. I am sure some one in Cleveland has read this, and it they are smart will look into the ‘problem’ honestly. If they do not, it is their loss. ________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
So…is the implication that any of us who should remain are part of the good ole boy system?I have supported you publicly and privately – but I think that generalization is a bit of overkill. Tom, my reference was toward the politics of the church and not toward pastors or members. We all know what it is and we have known so for years. If you were in the right fraternity, ran with the right guys or are related to them, you’re in. Otherwise, you’re not. Oh sure, there have been a few exceptions, but by and large it’s true. And if you are a part of that group or get accepted into the inner circle in other ways, it does not matter what you do, brothers stick together. Messes disappear, and accountability… forget it. If you went to Lee you know that Upsilon and Chi live by the motto that if one rises, he pulls others up with him. I’m sure that statement will draw ire by some, but that is just the way it is and has been.
I was not offended. I did read into it the next SheepdogAndy overtone – you know, All of you who remain part of a centralized form of government are less than enlightened. Nonetheless, I have encouraged and supported you through the unfortunate transition. From what little I know I think you have taken the high road – did not want to see that change.
Don’t speak for me Tom.I am quite capable of speaking for myself.Clearly and without need for interpretation.The system has been defined numerous times on this board.The excesses and abuse is well documented here.I would not say less enlightened.I will say that one day we all will give an account to God.Some behave as if we won’t________________Charles A. HutchinsSenior Pastor SPWCCongregational Church of Godwww.spwc.church
OK, system or no system, the number of local churches and membership seem relevant to this conversation. Maybe someone could pick a comparative year against the current year (1999 against 2019) for statistics in IL, if that is the focus of this thread. What were the numbers reported in 1999 (it seems like that would be in the minutes) and what are they now?A deeper study would be total giving and attendance, but I’m guessing you would have to access the State Office for those numbers, and that might be problematic. Here’s my two cents worth, when things are going great at my local church, the system is just fine, and when they are not, well, off with their heads!
I made no claim to speak for you.I simply stated my opinion of your recurring message over the years and my perception of the message – implicit or explici (note the term overtone).I will stand by that opinion.Anything else???
When I was in the business world, there was a problem that needed fixing, but no fixes were forthcoming. So I wrote a memo to upper management and advised them of the problem, since I was sure that once they knew, they would act.What they said changed my course of action. They said, We KNOW there’s a problem, but we don’t know the solution.And that was my signal to find the solution (I did).Don’t you think, my friend, that if Cleveland knew how to fix things, they would.? I guarantee you they know about the problem.
Must be blood moon time…Aaron Scott is right on here. No one has the solution – within our current framework. We’re like Sears – we want to be like Amazon – but don’t know how to get there from here________________
That to fix a situation, they would have to admit they made a horrendous mistake to begin with.That’s hard________________
One might infer from the OP, that a simple change of leadership (likely the AB) will bring about dramatic change throughout a state. Change begins at the grass-roots level. Sam Walton understood this concept. Churches grow when leadership systems are in place and the laity are equipped to do ministry. Too many churches are waiting on SuperPastor to come flying in and make the church grow. That’s not how it typically happens unless the pastor already has a huge following.
De-centralization.It’s going to happen, one way or another.It’s the local congregations.They matter________________Charles A. HutchinsSenior Pastor SPWCCongregational Church of Godwww.spwc.church
How many churches, pastors, and members will be gone in 15 months________________
How about some names and church names so we can fact check all of this?Hard to get riled up with a bunch of mumbo jumbo – saying nothing________________
OK…enough of the veiled cryptic inuendo.If you are talking about Illinois the fact is there are approximately 65 reporting churches. (www.illinoiscog.org/districts/) While I do not know the history, I would still say that you saying the CHurch of God is dangerlously close to losing an entire state! is a bit of dramatic overstatement.But that’s me… Last – have you accepted the invitation extended by the Illinois Bishop (on this forum) to call him and express your concerns or inquire for clarity?Have you called any of the leadership you’ve questioned?
I guess this is why we weren’t able to fact check.This post really does stink – worse than cheese________________
Hey, I’ve got nothing to lose since I’m no longer a part of the good ole boy system… I mean the Church of God. I believe that it was mentioned previously that pastors in the state are secretly talking to one another saying that the overseer will be gone so to just wait. I’ve had several contact me to tell me that if I will be patient and wait until there is a change that they will see to it that my credentials are restored. They presuppose that I would want them back. I won’t say never but I seriously doubt that I would ever come back. I bled Church of God all of my life, but the last 5 months have opened my eyes to the real working behind the scenes.
Must be blood moon time…Aaron Scott is right on here. No one has the solution – within our current framework. We’re like Sears – we want to be like Amazon – but don’t know how to get there from here. Technology, well placed warehouses and home delivery, at least that Amazon. So, a networks for large churches which also deliver home ministry? Sears, surrendered their catalog advantage for large overhead brick and stick mall stores where the customer must travel to them. So, it was a you have to come to us if you want it approach.
So…is the implication that any of us who should remain are part of the good ole boy system?
Looking in from the outside, if SC is a pastor in that state (or any state) and wants to protect his ability to pastor a COG, he will think three times (at least) before calling anyone in admin, state or national unless he has a ‘name’ or ‘in’ family wise more so than the overseer.I am COG was born COG and I love it, but ‘facts is facts’ as my brother used to say.For the record I have NEVER had a problem with ANY COG official and have known many. BUT I have good friends that have had ‘run ins’ and regretted it. PS: I think that is the reason for ‘pen names’ here. I am sure some one in Cleveland has read this, and it they are smart will look into the ‘problem’ honestly. If they do not, it is their loss. ________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
So…is the implication that any of us who should remain are part of the good ole boy system?I have supported you publicly and privately – but I think that generalization is a bit of overkill. Tom, my reference was toward the politics of the church and not toward pastors or members. We all know what it is and we have known so for years. If you were in the right fraternity, ran with the right guys or are related to them, you’re in. Otherwise, you’re not. Oh sure, there have been a few exceptions, but by and large it’s true. And if you are a part of that group or get accepted into the inner circle in other ways, it does not matter what you do, brothers stick together. Messes disappear, and accountability… forget it. If you went to Lee you know that Upsilon and Chi live by the motto that if one rises, he pulls others up with him. I’m sure that statement will draw ire by some, but that is just the way it is and has been.
I was not offended. I did read into it the next SheepdogAndy overtone – you know, All of you who remain part of a centralized form of government are less than enlightened. Nonetheless, I have encouraged and supported you through the unfortunate transition. From what little I know I think you have taken the high road – did not want to see that change.
Don’t speak for me Tom.I am quite capable of speaking for myself.Clearly and without need for interpretation.The system has been defined numerous times on this board.The excesses and abuse is well documented here.I would not say less enlightened.I will say that one day we all will give an account to God.Some behave as if we won’t________________Charles A. HutchinsSenior Pastor SPWCCongregational Church of Godwww.spwc.church
OK, system or no system, the number of local churches and membership seem relevant to this conversation. Maybe someone could pick a comparative year against the current year (1999 against 2019) for statistics in IL, if that is the focus of this thread. What were the numbers reported in 1999 (it seems like that would be in the minutes) and what are they now?A deeper study would be total giving and attendance, but I’m guessing you would have to access the State Office for those numbers, and that might be problematic. Here’s my two cents worth, when things are going great at my local church, the system is just fine, and when they are not, well, off with their heads!
I made no claim to speak for you.I simply stated my opinion of your recurring message over the years and my perception of the message – implicit or explici (note the term overtone).I will stand by that opinion.Anything else???