I’m sorry about the loss of your friend________________I’m not saved because I’m good. I’m saved because He’s good!My website: http://www.bradfreeman.comMy blog: bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/
Death is a difficult thing to come to terms with. Of course we know Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die… but that still doesn’t satisfy us when death comes. I resign to the fact that it was her time. No amount of faith prevented it from happening, and yet we have seen in scripture where God extended a king’s days.When David Wilkerson exited this life I had a hard time understanding the way he left. A car wreck! I argued with the Lord over that one. Here was a faithful servant of the Lord who had cheated death more than once by the protective hand of his God, and you mean to tell me God was not there this time? It wasn’t until his memorial service at Times Square Church that I gained understanding. They played a clip of him preaching just a short time before his death and he remarked, “So what if I’m walking down a street in New York city and a car runs up on the side walk and kills me? So what! One minute I’m walking on concrete the next streets of gold!”He was saying that when it’s his time it doesn’t matter how he leaves this world.Now OTCP, I know what you are implying by your question and post. If Norvel was such a man of faith, why did his daughter die? And I also understand it is your way of jabbing at word of faith preaches. The simple truth is… when its your time, its your time. How God chooses to let you exit this life, I.E: cancer, heart attack, car wreck, etc., is His own choosing. Surly Jesus could have called ten thousand angels to come and rescue him, but He knew it was His time.Charles Capps, another woffer, told his family two days before he died that he would be leaving on the very day he did.The death of Norvel’s daughter does in no way diminish his faith in God nor does it say he did not have enough faith, nor that his teaching on faith is false. Her death simply reminds us that when it’s our time… faith, calling things that are not as though they were, declaring scripture, and all the other things “woffers” are known for cannot stop the inevitable. I for one don’t want it stopped. When its my time, let me go! This world is not my home, I’m just passing through.
I believe the Bible says; and I paraphrase; Death is a precious thing in the sight of the Lord.We see it as a bad thing.This morning I told a friend of her death. She and Norval have preached in his church. He said; I just don’t understand this.I will remind him that it is a precious thing________________Recorded Sermons @ http://www.pastorwiley.com
1. Incorrect my fellow poster. The reason I titled the post Norvel Hayes Daughter is because the article I provided the link to was titled the same. Hayes was a WOF pioneer, however, the article is about his daughter, who carried on his word after he died. She too set forth WOF teaching. In no way is this thread a jab at WOF preachers. It is an honest assessment of WOF teaching. And as the title states, I don’t understand. Now I understand woffie teaching regarding physical healing, the guaranteed right the believer is purportedly given at conversion to reign supreme over sickness/disease. I understand how the luminaries of woffie-ism tell their followers to resist all sickness just as one would resist the temptation to sin, and in doing so all sickness will flee. What I don’t understand is WHY IT DOESN’T WORK FOR THE LUMINARIES. And what I really don’t understand is WHY, WHEN A LUMINARY IS DIAGNOSED WITH SOME SICKNESS/DISEASE, AND DIES, WHY NO ONE FROM THAT CAMP WILL RISE WITH HONESTY/INTEGRITY AND SAY ‘WE WERE WRONG, AND WERE GOING TO AMEND OUR DOCTRINE.’ 2. The death of Norvel’s daughter–after a long bout with cancer–most definitely brings into question the faith woffies proclaim. Yes, everybody is going to die. But this long bout with cancer, when at the same time these folk is preachin at a feller is guaranteed healin in the atonement, is a absolute travesty.
Amen and amen!OTCP… for you to say, The death of Norvel’s daughter–after a long bout with cancer–most definitely brings into question the faith woffies proclaim…. disgusting. In a moment when compassion and sympathy is the order of the day you have nothing but scathing, mocking judgment to offer.
My bro, I know that you have sincere issues with the whole WOF movement. I get that. And, indeed, some of the statements they have made have invited well-deserved criticism.But the thing that needs to be understood is that just because they preach a particular thing does not mean that they always live up to it. You and I may preach a strong sanctification message, yet, at times, not live up to it. The point is that our failure does not invalidate the message! The message is still true, even if we fail to live up to it.If a WOF preacher prays for someone and that person is not healed, it doesn’t mean that the message was wrong, but that there is some shortcoming elsewhere.
Thanks fellers fer the encouragement. Love yall too.This thread IS NOT about Norvel Hayes daughter per se, she just happened to be the one who experienced sickness/disease and passed this time. I pray for grace/peace/comfort to all who knew her, family/friends. This thread is no slight on her, the ole timer didn’t even know Norvel Hayes had a daughter till another Acts poster (who shall remain anonymous) sent me the link. Nor is this thread questioning her love for, devotion to, or relationship with Christ. It is referencing one thing and one thing only–woffie teaching on physical healing.It could just as well be Copeland, Hagin, Tilton, or anyone of a thousand WOF preachers, who proclaim as an undeniable right, that the Christian is guaranteed healing of all sickness/disease. When such individuals proclaim this position as Gospel truth, and it doesn’t work in their own lives, and they refuse to adjust/amend their teaching, and they continue to lead others into error, YES, they stand accountable to the test of truth. Would I interrupt the memorial service and publically denounce such persons? 99% a Acts posters knows the ole timer would not do such a thing. The other 1% suffer from a condition known in the Greek as
OTCP – there was no need to use this tragic death to take the shot at WOF preaching.To use this was tasteless, classless, and very bad form.For shame________________
There is no need to post another manifestation of repudiation, but I agree this was so poorly used to make a point that it makes you wonder about the soul of the human that crafted it________________Live an epiK life!Discover More…www.refocusing.orgA Mission in Formationwww.bluewaterinthekeys.com
Quite Wyatt, lots of people don’t claim the salvation that has supposedly already been paid for by Christ. Yet we would never claim that their failure to be saved was due to the salvation message being invalid. We’d just say they failed to accept it and so forth.
The problem with this line of reasoning is that the message of salvation is biblical, so, if one fails to access it via faith in Christ, there is nothing to repudiate.
Tasteless, Classless and Bad Form? This is subjective statement, and along with the other comments in this thread that rail agin the ole timer, fails to fully understand the motive.When Kenneth Hagin Sr passed, I asked the very same question within 24 hours of his passing.When Charles Capps passed, I posed the same question.When Oral Roberts passed, I visited the issue yet again.In all cases, as well as with this thread, OTCP was criticized, demeaned, and an overt attempt was made by several to publically shame, shoosh, humiliate and silence OTCP. No attempt was made to confront or expose this error for what it is. As a result, we find ourselves at the same place again:1. An
Re: One of my best friends worked very closely with her….
I’m sorry about the loss of your friend________________I’m not saved because I’m good. I’m saved because He’s good!My website: http://www.bradfreeman.comMy blog: bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/
Death is a difficult thing to come to terms with. Of course we know Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die… but that still doesn’t satisfy us when death comes. I resign to the fact that it was her time. No amount of faith prevented it from happening, and yet we have seen in scripture where God extended a king’s days.When David Wilkerson exited this life I had a hard time understanding the way he left. A car wreck! I argued with the Lord over that one. Here was a faithful servant of the Lord who had cheated death more than once by the protective hand of his God, and you mean to tell me God was not there this time? It wasn’t until his memorial service at Times Square Church that I gained understanding. They played a clip of him preaching just a short time before his death and he remarked, “So what if I’m walking down a street in New York city and a car runs up on the side walk and kills me? So what! One minute I’m walking on concrete the next streets of gold!”He was saying that when it’s his time it doesn’t matter how he leaves this world.Now OTCP, I know what you are implying by your question and post. If Norvel was such a man of faith, why did his daughter die? And I also understand it is your way of jabbing at word of faith preaches. The simple truth is… when its your time, its your time. How God chooses to let you exit this life, I.E: cancer, heart attack, car wreck, etc., is His own choosing. Surly Jesus could have called ten thousand angels to come and rescue him, but He knew it was His time.Charles Capps, another woffer, told his family two days before he died that he would be leaving on the very day he did.The death of Norvel’s daughter does in no way diminish his faith in God nor does it say he did not have enough faith, nor that his teaching on faith is false. Her death simply reminds us that when it’s our time… faith, calling things that are not as though they were, declaring scripture, and all the other things “woffers” are known for cannot stop the inevitable. I for one don’t want it stopped. When its my time, let me go! This world is not my home, I’m just passing through.
My thoughts and prayers go out to anyone who loses a loved one. ________________Some facts but mostly just my [email protected]/
I believe the Bible says; and I paraphrase; Death is a precious thing in the sight of the Lord.We see it as a bad thing.This morning I told a friend of her death. She and Norval have preached in his church. He said; I just don’t understand this.I will remind him that it is a precious thing________________Recorded Sermons @ http://www.pastorwiley.com
1. Incorrect my fellow poster. The reason I titled the post Norvel Hayes Daughter is because the article I provided the link to was titled the same. Hayes was a WOF pioneer, however, the article is about his daughter, who carried on his word after he died. She too set forth WOF teaching. In no way is this thread a jab at WOF preachers. It is an honest assessment of WOF teaching. And as the title states, I don’t understand. Now I understand woffie teaching regarding physical healing, the guaranteed right the believer is purportedly given at conversion to reign supreme over sickness/disease. I understand how the luminaries of woffie-ism tell their followers to resist all sickness just as one would resist the temptation to sin, and in doing so all sickness will flee. What I don’t understand is WHY IT DOESN’T WORK FOR THE LUMINARIES. And what I really don’t understand is WHY, WHEN A LUMINARY IS DIAGNOSED WITH SOME SICKNESS/DISEASE, AND DIES, WHY NO ONE FROM THAT CAMP WILL RISE WITH HONESTY/INTEGRITY AND SAY ‘WE WERE WRONG, AND WERE GOING TO AMEND OUR DOCTRINE.’ 2. The death of Norvel’s daughter–after a long bout with cancer–most definitely brings into question the faith woffies proclaim. Yes, everybody is going to die. But this long bout with cancer, when at the same time these folk is preachin at a feller is guaranteed healin in the atonement, is a absolute travesty.
and one tasteless….
Amen and amen!OTCP… for you to say, The death of Norvel’s daughter–after a long bout with cancer–most definitely brings into question the faith woffies proclaim…. disgusting. In a moment when compassion and sympathy is the order of the day you have nothing but scathing, mocking judgment to offer.
OTCP…`
My bro, I know that you have sincere issues with the whole WOF movement. I get that. And, indeed, some of the statements they have made have invited well-deserved criticism.But the thing that needs to be understood is that just because they preach a particular thing does not mean that they always live up to it. You and I may preach a strong sanctification message, yet, at times, not live up to it. The point is that our failure does not invalidate the message! The message is still true, even if we fail to live up to it.If a WOF preacher prays for someone and that person is not healed, it doesn’t mean that the message was wrong, but that there is some shortcoming elsewhere.
Thanks fellers fer the encouragement. Love yall too.This thread IS NOT about Norvel Hayes daughter per se, she just happened to be the one who experienced sickness/disease and passed this time. I pray for grace/peace/comfort to all who knew her, family/friends. This thread is no slight on her, the ole timer didn’t even know Norvel Hayes had a daughter till another Acts poster (who shall remain anonymous) sent me the link. Nor is this thread questioning her love for, devotion to, or relationship with Christ. It is referencing one thing and one thing only–woffie teaching on physical healing.It could just as well be Copeland, Hagin, Tilton, or anyone of a thousand WOF preachers, who proclaim as an undeniable right, that the Christian is guaranteed healing of all sickness/disease. When such individuals proclaim this position as Gospel truth, and it doesn’t work in their own lives, and they refuse to adjust/amend their teaching, and they continue to lead others into error, YES, they stand accountable to the test of truth. Would I interrupt the memorial service and publically denounce such persons? 99% a Acts posters knows the ole timer would not do such a thing. The other 1% suffer from a condition known in the Greek as
The problem is that the WoF
OTCP – there was no need to use this tragic death to take the shot at WOF preaching.To use this was tasteless, classless, and very bad form.For shame________________
There is no need to post another manifestation of repudiation, but I agree this was so poorly used to make a point that it makes you wonder about the soul of the human that crafted it________________Live an epiK life!Discover More…www.refocusing.orgA Mission in Formationwww.bluewaterinthekeys.com
Quite Wyatt, lots of people don’t claim the salvation that has supposedly already been paid for by Christ. Yet we would never claim that their failure to be saved was due to the salvation message being invalid. We’d just say they failed to accept it and so forth.
The problem with this line of reasoning is that the message of salvation is biblical, so, if one fails to access it via faith in Christ, there is nothing to repudiate.
Tasteless, Classless and Bad Form? This is subjective statement, and along with the other comments in this thread that rail agin the ole timer, fails to fully understand the motive.When Kenneth Hagin Sr passed, I asked the very same question within 24 hours of his passing.When Charles Capps passed, I posed the same question.When Oral Roberts passed, I visited the issue yet again.In all cases, as well as with this thread, OTCP was criticized, demeaned, and an overt attempt was made by several to publically shame, shoosh, humiliate and silence OTCP. No attempt was made to confront or expose this error for what it is. As a result, we find ourselves at the same place again:1. An