I have no desire to debate the merits of various titles like Bishop or Ordained Minister. I want to talk about the completely unscriptural practice of appointing women as pastors/overseers of congregations.
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I have no desire to debate the merits of various titles like Bishop or Ordained Minister. I want to talk about the completely unscriptural practice of appointing women as pastors/overseers of congregations.
The qualitative difference that should be obvious between the liberal theological side and the classical Pentecostal and Holiness Movements’ affirmation of women in ministry and as pastors is that while the liberals were devaluing the authority and divine inspiration of the Scriptures, the Holiness and Pentecostal Movements were instead upholding the Scriptures while recognizing God’s sovereign scriptural right to gift and call whosoever to work in His kingdom. Pentecostals have not come at this issue from anything remotely similar to the modern feminist movement. In fact, surveys of female Pentecostal pastors and evangelists have revealed them to be very conservative theologically, and certainly not anything like the theological liberals in ‘mainstream’ denominations.
I got to agree with Eddie here.If cultural differences from their time to now can’t be taken into account – then women should tape their mouths shut as they enter the door.Absolutely no speaking by women.Any deviance from that and you are a huge liberal________________
Re: The Idea of Women Pastors is Unbiblical
My favorite line from the original post (albeit not original…)
My favorite line from the original post (albeit not original…)
My favorite line from the original post (albeit not original…)
You can’t bring this subject to light w/out debate.Just for the record I find it highly offensive for anyone to directly or indirectly align the anointing of women in ministry as the same as anointing homosexuals in ministry. Anyone who does this needs a serious break through in an old fashion altar if you can remember what altars are used for.
My favorite line from the original post (albeit not original…)
The COG would not be as widespread in America, if it were it not for women preachers, who established & pastored many COG in the early years. Interesting that our forefathers of faith allowed that________________More of Him…less of me.twitter.com/camiracle77www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=691241499&ref=name
I acknowledge there are wise men and women who are strong Christians that might hold differing views from me. I believe the Spirit of God uses women in a mighty way. I just don’t believe there is biblical support to appoint female pastors. I have 3 observations I’d like you to consider:1. There were no known women pastors in New Testament times. 2. None of the instructions regarding church order include instructions for female pastors (they are all for husbands and fathers!)3. Some texts in the NT expressly forbid women from occupying that role.
Or the PH Carolyn….Hopewell’s first two pastors were ladies and where I am now the first pastor was a lady evangelist that stayed here almost 9 years….When I was an intern pastor in the COG the church I served had been predominantly and successfully pastored by women and is still pastored by a woman today________________Pastor Mike IPHC Pastor
Early in the COG Movement …
Early in the COG Movement there was a sincere effort to take into consideration all scriptures in regards to women’s role in the church. That’s why women could minister in the congregation/body, yet be asked to be silent in the business of the church (perhaps not to publicly disagree with their husbands). That may not have been the correct interpretation, but they were making the effort to comply with the whole Bible, rightly divided. Since the ship of the husband of one wife has sailed long ago (and no, the scripture does not say, one wife at a time), the issue now is positional authority. Times past, when questioning the authority of a woman to pastor a church the answer was she pastored the church under the authority of the overseer (a man) who appointed her. Phebe was sent to the Roman Church under the authority of the Apostle Paul, and he told them they better listen to her and help her as she ministered.The church is not a business, not a secular institution or organization. Church leaders, even in assembly, conference or council, can not say this is the way its going to be and be-stole Bible truth to their collective command. The church must be as the every assemblies were, questions were raised and Bible answers were given.I would agree the Bible model for marriage (between a man and a woman and the structural operation of the New Testament Church as revealed in scripture must not cancel each other out. One thing I know about men is (I confess to not understand women, especially my one and only wife) if their wives take on the duties the husband should carry, the husband will gladly let he.
Ask someone who is FOR women in all levels of leadership if they believe that the man is the head of the woman.Almost always, the answer will be either that head means source, which is a way of trying to skirt (hey!) the issue of authority. Thus, Jesus is not our head in terms of authority, apparently, but is our head in terms of…source.OR, the other answer will be something along the lines of No, the man is not the head of the woman–things have evolved.The point I am making is that, in many cases (most? all?) the ones who most strongly support women in high leadership have already made a questionable interpretation (rejection?) of what the Bible has already stated about gender roles.NOTE: These folks are still men and women of God, as good or better than anyone else, I imagine. I am simply noting what I have witnessed over the years in this discussion, namely that when you get right down to it, there is a significant divide about issues that seem quite clear in scripture (i.e., man as head of the woman).
I Timothy and Titus have long been held as the most reliable means of objective qualifications for bishops and deacons. I concede that there were cultural problems in Ephesus and Corinth. But Paul appeals to Creation. When Adam & Eve sinned, God did not ask Eve where she was. From the very beginning, God created man to lead his home. This does not demean the role of women in the church. Husbands are to love their wives like Christ loved the Church. So any idea that the husband is to rule the home as an unloving dictator is foreign to the New Testament. God created men and women very differently with specific strengths and weaknesses. Peter referred to the wife as the “weaker vessel†(I Pet 3:7). That doesn’t mean she’s inferior. I realize this is a “hot potato†but I believe we are in error by ordaining female pastors.
From a poster now banned by a certain admin. in the hot discussion forum on should we allow women to speak in tongues. Kinda says it all i think.WOMEN IN MINISTRY PREAMBLE: There is much for us to understand regarding women in Ministry. The word of God must always be interpreted by considering all of the scripture, from beginning to end, from Genesis to Revelation. The �Full Counsel� of God�s Word must be taken in the context written, not taking one verse out of context and then trying to build a doctrine based upon our preconceived biases. The Assemblies of God, since the beginnings of our movement, believes in the supernatural ennoblement and gifting of the Holy Spirit. We have as a movement been blessed by many gifted women over the past century. In doing so, we see the fulfillment of Joel 2:28-29in the Book of Acts, especially Acts 2:16-18. �This is that…�. Therefore, we as a movement and more importantly as part of the universal Body of Christ must recognize that when God speaks through His Word, He intends it to prevail for all eternity (�heaven and earth shall pass away but my words shall not pass away� Luke 21:13). So when He says, �your daughters shall prophesy… and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my Spirit�, we must realize this is the Truth for all time. We all agree that the Bible is always our final authority for all Truth taught. Yet there is much debate in some circles regarding the role of women in spiritual leadership and particularly in the government of the local church and in the greater scope of the Body at large. SCRIPTURAL REFERENCES: Let us examine in detail some of the more perplexing scriptures that have given rise to this honest debate among sincere Christians, even Spirit-Baptized believers. The most problems stem from these two passages that the Apostle Paul wrote: 1 Corinthians 14:34-36 & 1 Timothy 2:11-12 These words have often been misinterpreted (innocently and not so innocently) and have been a source of perplexity to the Body, especially to many women who have a burning in their souls for service to the Lord. Many denominations have forbidden women to teach, preach, testify, or even pray audibly in church, based upon these scriptures. Let us consider the whole counsel of God�s Word. In the Genesis account of creation, there is no sign of inequality between the sexes. In Genesis 1:26-28both men & women were to subdue and have dominion over everything on earth. We must sometimes be reminded that Woman was taken from Adam�s side, not his foot and made as a helpmeet to man. This word for helper in the Hebrew is never understood as a subordinate role, rather it means suitable or one �corresponding� to Adam. However, after the fall, a curse was laid upon the wife. This curse fell upon Eve, not as a woman, but as a wife. Women are not placed in a lower rank to men. However, there is a different relationship and distinction made between a husband and a wife. Wives do have a subordinate place in the family but not in the Lord. And yet even in the familial role, there is a lack of understanding as to what Genesis 3is speaking of after the Fall when God says, �Man shall rule over you.� The rule there is not dominion, it is in fact an understanding that no longer will God be first in her life naturally but now she will fight the impulse to put her devotion for her husband before her God. That is the curse. But God never intended for that to be the case and in Christ the possibility exists for both men and women to put God back on His throne in their lives by putting Him first � naturally. Galatians 3:28says �There is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ. Jesus showed us the way it would be in Heaven, (Mat 22:30 KJV) For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.� Why would that be? Because in Heaven we will have glorified bodies, that is to say spiritual bodies. After all, God is Spirit and we shall be like Him. Therefore God places no limitations on the spiritual. What we have done is taken the relationship of husbands and wives and made these distinctions and limitations a part of our culture relating to women�s roles rather than to wives roles! In the Spiritual realm there are neither distinctions nor limitations made by God. Gal. 3:28. In fact, women are called �Sons of God I John 3:2Beloved, now are we the sons of God. John was writing to the entire church. In fact 3 John starts out, to the elect lady (most agree it is a church not only ‘just for a woman). The verse continues… and it doth not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that, when He appears we will be like Him: for we shall see Him as He is. Women will be like Him as much as men will, for we will ALL be spiritual. So what is Paul trying to say to us in I Corinthians 14:34-36? �Women keep silent in the churches�: In the original Greek, there is only one word for woman or wife, the word �Gune�. This word can be interpreted either as woman or wife depending upon the context of the sentence or usage. There is also only one word for man – none for husband. Verse 34 must be talking about a wife not a woman because in the context of the two verses taken together the word for man is translated husband in vs. 35 because the word home is used. Verse 35 says, �If they will learn, let them ask their husbands at home.� Since not all women have husbands, the sentence is better translated �Let your wives keep silence.� Why would Paul tell the wives to keep silent and learn at home? In order to understand this better, you need to know how the early church (and the Jewish synagogues even today) was structured. There were cultural differences from today. The women/wives/girls were seated or stood on one side of the room while the men/husbands/boys were on the other side of the room. Can you imagine the discord (see Vs 33 confusion) that could arise if a wife were to ask a question of her husband on the other side of the room? Can you hear the chattering as women (who were not allowed to be educated in some cultures would talk among themselves to get an answer (learn at home)? In other words, he seems to be saying 1) don�t chatter 2) don�t disrupt by asking questions. As we see, the �whole counsel of God� must be used, for in 1 Cor. 11:5 Paul is certainly permitting women to pray and prophesy in corporate services. Let us consider the other problem passage, I Timothy 2:11-15 �A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing – if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.� Paul again is not talking about women but wives here. Consider the fact that Paul is referring to Adam and Eve – husband and wife. Again, ask your husband at home, so as not to cause confusion in church meeting. Implying men were better informed than women were. In addition, it seems highly plausible that Paul is here addressing to Timothy some of the problems that this particular church (Ephesus) was having. There were some heretical teachings and practices going on and some of the problem was coming from the Ephesian women/wives. If you read the entire passage from 1 Timothy 2:9-15you get a picture of a unique heresy involving these women. Paul is making an application for this church and not necessarily an application universally applied to all churches for all time. How can we say this? As we have said in the beginning, all scripture should be interpreted in the light of what other scripture says from Genesis to Revelation. I Corinthians 14:34 says, Women keep silent in the church. I Corinthians 11: 5 says, Every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoreth her head. How can you prophesy and keep silent at the same time? (Some especially those who don’t believe in gifts for today think prophesying is preaching). Acts 2:16,17 this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will �see visions your old men will dream dreams�. This is what Joel prophesied and Peter said on the day of Pentecost. In Acts 1:13-14, they were All (men/women) in the upper room. They continued �in prayer with the women�, so women were praying. Acts 5:1 0 when the Holy Ghost fell on Cornelius’ household they were All filled. Mary the mother of Jesus prophesied. Elizabeth the mother of John the Baptist prophesied. Luke 2:36 Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel of the tribe of Asher. prophesied in the temple, she prayed night and day. The Bible calls Anna a prophetess, which is the feminine form of prophet. Miriam, Moses sister was a prophet. Deborah from the Book of Judges not only ruled Israel but she also was a prophetess. Hilkiah the High Priest went to Huldah the prophetess of God in 2 Kings 22:14to find out for King Josiah the word of the Lord. Paul certainly would not prevent women from speaking messages given to them by the Holy Ghost because the Lord says, �your daughters shall prophesy�. Paul had to be saying, �I suffer not a wife to teach or usurp authority over her husband� or if in fact he was dealing with a unique situation he was not telling us that women must not rule or teach men! In fact, regarding that women should not teach men, we see in Acts 18:26that Aquila and Priscilla taught Apollos. Paul addresses in Rom. 16:3 Priscilla first when he salutes the church that meets at Priscilla and Aquila�s house �who have for my life laid down their own necks� (unusual to greet woman first, Paul respected women). Again, we find the problem of translation in 1 Tim. 3:1-13 dealing with qualifications for ministry. While it is true that this passage deal primarily with male leadership, it is also true that it does so out of majority practices and expectations. Verse 11 also gives us some problems. The word translates wives here is the Greek �gunaikas� which can be translated as wives or women depending upon usage and the translator�s assumptions. One rendering gives us the impression of Deacon�s wives while the other rendering leads us to female spiritual leadership in the church. We know in reading Paul�s other epistles, especially Romans 16that women in leadership roles were permitted. Romans 16:1-2Phoebe is called a servant of the church. The Greek word diakonos translated here as servant. I commend unto you Phoebe, a deaconess�. Paul wrote to the church at Rome to the men as well as women assist her. Roman 16:3-4 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers, Roman 16:12 �salute Tryphena and. Tryphosa who labour in the Lord; salute Persis�. From the Greek we know these three are women. Rom. 16:7 Junia is a feminine name, she is called an Apostle. JUST BECAUSE A PASSAGE IMPLIES MOST LEADERS WERE MEN DOES NOT AND CAN NOT BE MADE TO SAY WOMEN CANNOT BE LEADERS AS WELL. Is the man the head of the woman? I Corinthians 11:3 says, � the head of every man is Christ, head of the wife is the husband, head of Christ is God. Is every man the head of every woman? No. A man is the head of one woman, his wife. The Greek word for man and husband in the New Testament is the same. �A husband is the head of his wife.� Paul in his writing is sometimes talking about women in general, other times he is strictly talking about wives. Christ is the head of the woman just as much as he is the head of man. Christ is the head of the Church. Paul was talking about family situations. He is not saying the husband is the wife’s spiritual head. If that were true, the born-again wife, of an unsaved man, would not have a spiritual head. Jesus is the head of the Church. In Christ there is neither male nor female. The first to go and. tell, (to preach means to go tell) the good tiding of the Resurrection of Jesus was a woman. On the day of Pentecost and in Acts 4:31, they were all filled (men & women alike) with the Holy Ghost. In fact, Phillip had 4 daughters who were prophets (esses). Can women be ordained into the 5-fold ministry? CONCLUSION:
Now, Tom…
My favorite line from the original post (albeit not original…)